CDZ chats

[Cheetah]

Matrix: That is Sunday, 19th of December, right?

 

[Matrix]

Indeed.

Please, meet me at MSN now, if you read this.

 

[Matrix]

Here's the log.

I have to admit I was not good. Perhaps because I'm rather tired, I don't know. I'd better stick to the foreign policy rather than lead the negotiations myself.

 

[Emp.Napoleon]

Could you post it word per word, I can not seem to open this attachment.

 

[Pegster]

I don't like them

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Sorry, folks....this is pretty much how it looks when you open it.

Fastbeam says:
hi Matrix!
Matrix says:
Hello.
Kemal says:
hi there
Kingreno says:
Greetings
Matrix says:
I wonder if Cheetah is there... 
Matrix says:
Anyway, let's begin.
Kemal says:
indeed, lets start
Kingreno says:
we're all ears 
Fastbeam says:
Is Knigreno in the chat?
Kingreno says:
yes
Matrix says:
We've noticed that C3B suddenly had Construction and Currency. Could you tell us whether you've sold it to them?
Kemal says:
he just said something above your comment beam...
Kemal says:
can you see him?
Fastbeam says:
nope
Fastbeam says:

 
 Kingreno has left the conversation.
 
Matrix says:
o dear
Kemal says:
hmm, I'll reinvite you beam?
Kemal says:
or kr...
Fastbeam says:
plz
 
 Fastbeam has left the conversation.
 
 Kingreno has been added to the conversation.
 
 Fastbeam has been added to the conversation.
 
Kemal says:
thsi better?
Kingreno says:
test
Fastbeam says:
ik zie je
Fastbeam says:
hier
Kingreno says:
woohoo
Kemal says:
english please guys... 
Fastbeam says:
ok
Matrix says:
"IMsecure" might have had something to do with it.  Anyway...
Matrix says:
Have you read my question?
Kemal says:
about the way c3b acquired the techs? yes we did have something to do with that yes 
Matrix says:
You had something to do with it, being you sold it?
I don't see another possibility.
Kingreno says:
we sold it yes
Kemal says:
true, we sold it, as kr says
Cheetah says:
Hey, thanks for inviting me Matrix, I had forgotten this 
Matrix says:
np
Welcome. 
Matrix says:
Ok.

Is a trade-embargo for the future, including tech trading, an option?
Kingreno says:
greetings cheetah
Matrix says:
And if so, how much would you ask for it?
Kemal says:
depends I guess, what is your idea about that?
Kingreno says:
Could you elaborate a bit further on that?
Matrix says:
Well, for example, we could give you gpt permanently for every turn you don't trade with C3B.
Kingreno says:
I am particulary interested as to the "why" of tis deal?
Kingreno says:
tis=this
Kemal says:
and, perhaps you could elaborate a bit on what "trading" and gpt consist of exactly in your perception
Matrix says:
Sure. I could tell you, KingReno. But we at CFC noticed that you are very tight-lipped, so I'd like to talk only in in-game terms, such as trade-embargo and gpt (including an elaboration of course) unless you can tell us a bit more about, for example, how your past meetings with C3B went.
Kingreno says:
ok
Kemal says:
well, you want to arrange a deal with us... naturally we want to know what that deal consists of before we can make a decision on that
Matrix says:
The amount of gpt is hard to determine. I think it's around...5 gpt. What do you think, Cheetah?
Kingreno says:
our contact with c3b went normal.
Matrix says:
lol
"normal". Just cows and calfs, KingReno? 
Kingreno says:
hehe
Kingreno says:
well, what can i say...you warn us of a monstrously difficult civ to trade with...
Kemal says:
the meeting with c3b went quite well, trading was not very difficult at all
Matrix says:
Oh, I'm sure they were very happy to deal with you!
Matrix says:
You're not bordering them. 
Kemal says:
we expected something else based on your previous comments to us though
Kingreno says:
naturaly. But we are making hard cash of both of you now. It is logical. Our neighbour happens to be the strongest civ on the map. we can use this money!
Cheetah says:
I'm sure you can 
Kingreno says:
Have you met the Celts yet? Or are you sending galleys out to meet them? you will notice they are huge. 
Matrix says:
Do you see them as a threat? I mean, the elimination of GCA, did you have an alliance with CGN? Or was it just a case of CGN against you?
Kingreno says:
GCA invaded us. we hit them back. hard.
Matrix says:
Apparently. 
Kingreno says:
CGN built the pyramids, not military
Cheetah says:
Oh! That is something I have wondered about. Did you have an alliance with the Celts against GCA?
Cheetah says:
hm. so no alliance?
Kingreno says:
GCA's end was inevitable.
Kingreno says:

Matrix says:
Cool. 
About the Celts, have they met C3B?

Cheetah says:
hehe
Kingreno says:
dont know
Matrix says:
You can tell yourself in the foreign advisor screen.
Kemal says:
I'm afraid we can't comment on that
Matrix says:
Also whether we've met CGN or not.
Matrix says:
But apparently they're bigger than you?
Kingreno says:
check the score.
Kemal says:
well, you can see the scores yes
Matrix says:
Ah, good point.
Kemal says:
but... lets get back to your idea about embargos and such
Matrix says:
Well, let's get on to business. With the trade embargo
Matrix says:
we mean to pay you to not trade with C3B anymore.
Matrix says:
Especially no tech selling!
Kemal says:
yes, and we'd like to know, what exactly can't we do, and what would be our gains if we comply?
Kingreno says:
why would we want that?
Kingreno says:
indeed kemal
Matrix says:
You may talk, you may say why you can't trade with them, but you can't sell techs, send/get money and/or luxuries. Except for what's already flowing of course.
Matrix says:
The price is very difficult to determine. But is this in it's essence an option?
Matrix says:
Ah and what you gain is our gold. Very simple. 
Kingreno says:
sorry, but how could you, with your gold flowing our way defeat the immortals of Brasil?
Kemal says:
btw, about your proposal, for the right price anything is possible of course
Matrix says:
Hm? You want to help thinking about a way to defeat C3B, KingReno?
Cheetah says:
We are willing to pay you for not selling techs to C3B. Remember that the gold we would send you would be an income you would be sure you would get each turn, as opposed to a _possible_ profit from selling techs to C3B.
Kingreno says:
well. I feel like a spectator on our own island.
Matrix says:
lol
Kemal says:
well, rather he's asking a question how you want to deal with them I guess
Kingreno says:
look. If we sponsor you and you are defeated we would bring brasil to the finals. I bet they remeber then whose side we picked!
Matrix says:
We have evidence - here I go again, giving you information - they are planning to attack us. Also, that they have been planning this while we were both talking about a mutual alliance to defeat either you or CGN, whichever would be most convenient.
Matrix says:
Apparently they tried to double-cross us. Or, for lack of a more original word, to backstab us.
Kingreno says:
we have attackplans ready for every civ at any point in the game. It is very difficult to judge the plans from another civ.
Matrix says:
Then why don't you attack GCN?
Matrix says:
CGN
Kingreno says:
i said PLANS
Kingreno says:
just in cas eit is needed. 
Matrix says:
Ah, my mistake.
Kingreno says:
do you have Hard evidence?
Matrix says:
Not personally. But I can find it on the forum.
Matrix says:
I'm not a detective. That's why I quite being GOTM admin. 
Matrix says:
quit
Kemal says:
hmm, anyway, so you are offering 5gpt for an embargo vs the brazilians?
Matrix says:
1 min please
(loading save)
Cheetah says:
Yes. 5 gpt for an embargo is a possible offering.
Matrix says:
On second thought I think you'll find 5 gpt a bit low, right? 
Kemal says:
you want to go hogher than this then?
Kemal says:
higher
Matrix says:
I was checking our budget and was reasoning how much yours will be. I don't think you will do it for 5 gpt.

I might be mistaken!  Is 5 gpt enough? 
Matrix says:
Would you do it for 5 gpt?
Kemal says:
hmm, I can't tell yet since the offer is new to our team, but I think your thoughts about it being a bit low are correct, and that this will be reflected in any decison we take about your proposal here 
Cheetah says:
Would you care to make a guess as to how much your team would find acceptible?
Kemal says:
well, since this involves a third party as well, c3b, and considering we have had a good trade with them already, I suppose it would have to be considerably higher than 5gpt
Matrix says:
[thinking]
Look, first of all, I don't know how much you can offer them at all in the future, because I don't know how far you are in tech. Of course, you'll never want to tell us. So it's more or less a shot in the dark.

Also, for how many turns are we going to pin ourselves up to it.
Kemal says:
well, I guess, since you guys are proposing this embargo, you also have some ideas about the length of it, right? 
Matrix says:
Let's start with 20 turns. After ten turns we'll negotiate for the ten turns after that, etc, etc.
 
 RikMeleet has left the conversation.
 
Cheetah says:
brb
Matrix says:
And the offer is *for the first 20 turns*...7 gpt! And this one is serious. Especially because they've already bought const and curr and probably don't have anything to spare anyway.
Matrix says:
After that I can imagine it'll be higher.
Matrix says:
(Half off-topic: I'm a bit tired. Sorry if negotiations go a little chaotic.)
Kingreno says:
we initially agreed 8 o'clock Maarten 
Matrix says:
Indeed. My mistake as well. 
Kingreno says:
np
Matrix says:
I suppose you're all discussing the amount?
Matrix says:
the proposal
Kingreno says:
sorry for the delay.
 
 RikMeleet has been added to the conversation.
 
Matrix says:
Hi, Rik!
RikMeleet says:
hallo, I thought it started at 22:00 
Matrix says:
My mistake, Rik. 
Kingreno says:
hi rik!
Kemal says:
hi rik
Matrix says:
I'm offering 7 gpt for 20 turns of no trade with C3B and renegotiations every ten turns for the ten turns after.
RikMeleet says:
Hello KingReno, Kemal, Beam, Matrix & Cheetah
Fastbeam says:
hi Rik
Matrix says:
I tell you what, we make a poll of it, since I don't know if the others will agree with it at all! You can do so as well, and we both can also poll how much we *are* willing to spend for it in case either of us disagrees.
Cheetah says:
*back*
Cheetah says:
hi Rik 
RikMeleet says:
Hi
Matrix says:
And we'll decide in a few days. How about that?
Kemal says:
hmm yes, I think we will need some more time to discuss this idea of a embargo in general, as well as your proposal 
Kemal says:
could you perhaps send a written proposal to us once your poll is finished, regarding the exact specs of the proposal?
Matrix says:
That's ok.
Matrix says:
brb!!
RikMeleet says:
Since Matrix is away, can someone please give me a short update on the discussed topics please ? 
Matrix says:
Back already. 
Matrix says:
I told you about the proposal. We've talked a bit about the situation of the game in general.
RikMeleet says:
ok
Matrix says:
Now, anarres once said literally "we want to help ". What exactly did he mean with that? Do you want to help us if we and C3B are at war?
Kemal says:
well, we have our own interest to look after in this game of course, so it all depends on the exact situation I guess
Matrix says:
Hm, ok. Another thing:
Matrix says:
I told you about our affairs with C3B and their double-crossing. Did C3B say anything about us in this matter? Did they...how do you say it..."Hebben zij ons zwart gemaakt?"
Kingreno says:
No. 
Matrix says:
Do you believe us?
Kingreno says:
hmm
Kemal says:
about which things?
Matrix says:
I can imagine C3B could simply spread lies and then it's their word against ours.

Of course, me starting about this makes myself less reliable, so I shouldn't have done it. It's just that I'm worried. 
Kemal says:
well, we will form our opinions based on our own observations of course, rest assured 
Matrix says:
Good. I think we're done. I'm tired. 
Matrix says:
As you might've noticed. 
Kingreno says:
hehe
Kemal says:
yes, I don't think cdz has any pressing points anymore to cover at this moment either
Kingreno says:
indeed
RikMeleet says:
Quick summary ? 
Matrix says:
I'll post the whole chat at CFC, Rik.
Matrix says:
Is there any chance you'll tell us how much C3B had to pay for Const & Curr?
RikMeleet says:
ok
Matrix says:
If not, I suppose C3B doesn't know about our deals with you? 
Kingreno says:
oops
Matrix says:
What "oops"?
Kingreno says:
I though the chat was over
Kingreno says:

Matrix says:
Yea, yea, my mistake.
Matrix says:
I mean, it's getting more informal now. 
Kingreno says:
there is always a chance matrix. But lets keep you guessing for now )
Kemal says:
indeed they do not know about our deals, so I guess we shouldn;t disclose that info regarding our deal with c3b either, I guess..
Matrix says:
I understand. Now we're done. 
Thanks for the meeting!
Kemal says:
ok, our pleasure, talk to you laters then! 
Kingreno says:
same here.
Kingreno says:
bye all!
Kemal says:
have a good night all
RikMeleet says:
Cya
Fastbeam says:
Thanks for your time people, laters!
Matrix says:
Bye!
 
 Kingreno has left the conversation.
 
Cheetah says:
bye all

 

[Matrix]

Whether we like them is irrelevant. Whether we trust them is relevant.

Perhaps we should prove to them they had military plans while we were talking about "eternal alliance".

 

[Provolution]

I think diplomacy has played out its role. We can still use these chats to spread disinformation we need to deliver in order to reprogram their strategic rationale.
We should basically make these chats a Western Ocean discussion in order to focus on C3Bs maritime invasion area, and our joint disputed ocean with all civs.

From the gold transfer from us to them, the reduced C3B economy due to the penalty and then the tech transfers from CDZ to C3B, there has been foul play involved.
No chance C3B could afford that, CDZ gave it to them to finish us off and end this game. The other teams are getting weary of this game, and they team against us, is clear for all of us to see.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Whether we like them is irrelevant. Whether we trust them is relevant.

Perhaps we should prove to them they had military plans while we were talking about "eternal alliance".

Very well, then. I don't trust them. Knowing the caliber of player at CDZ, I have a feeling that they just plan to use us both as puppets. The gifting (or selling) of two techs to C3B is obviously a way for them to even things up on this side of the world so that neither us or C3B becomes too powerful.

I say that we cease bowing to them. I would go no more than 5gpt for an embargo, if even that. In hindsight, we spent far too much on the Horseback trade(iirc) awhile back: 25gpt? I supported it at the time, but I can see now that we will most likely be bowing to their arrogance if we continue on this path.

Like it or not, CDZ now holds some major strings in our dealings with C3B, which adds a new dynamic to this game. How do you suggest we handle that?

 

[Emp.Napoleon]

If I recall correctly, even with a in-game embargo, civs can still trade money. If so the money we would give to CDZ, may be given right back to C3B.

 

[Provolution]

If we don't like them and don't trust them, that is as relevant as it gets.
I was never for subsidizing these perfidious war profiteers in the first place.

 

[Matrix]

If I recall correctly, even with a in-game embargo, civs can still trade money. If so the money we would give to CDZ, may be given right back to C3B.

You should read the poll more closely.

 

[Emp.Napoleon]

You should read the poll more closely.

But couldn't they just give money to them behind our backs.

 

[Provolution]

People should consider to max out gold, and pick up easy low level techs as these become cheaply available as research times get shorter.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

I think it may be time for us to bunker down and devote ourselves to a strong military defense. It will mean some major changes in how we currently operate, but could ensure our survival for quite some time.

I will draft some details and get them up within a few days.

 

[Provolution]

Yeah second DZ here, I am tired of this whimpering and crawl for some peripheral website
war profiteer outfit drinking beer and plotting our downfall with some attractive Brazillian catlike cyber-ambassador. We need steel, not more dreamy quagmire treaties.

 

[Emp.Napoleon]

Yeah second DZ here, I am tired of this whimpering and crawl for some peripheral website war profiteer outfit drinking beer and plotting our downfall with some attractive Brazillian catlike cyber-ambassador. We need steel, not more dreamy quagmire treaties.

Hey, what is with all the anti-Cat stuff

But I do agree, we need a military ASAP, diplomancy now has to come second.

 

[rcoutme]

Given our economy, I believe that C3B had to pay about the same amount as us for the techs. This means that they are likely strapped to the final bit on cash (albeit they do have the Hanging Gardens to relieve the pressure on their unhappiness factor). I agree that CDZ is war-profiteering, but that is why they risked crossing the oceans in the first place. They did not risk galleys in the hopes that they could help one or the other of us destroy the 4th player!

When looking at diplomatic relations, one must put oneself in his opponent's position. CGN, if they are powerful, would more easily ensure their own position by eliminating a dangerous rival on their own continent. CDZ would like to survive; to that end, they need the cash to do so. As they said in their very first diplomatic meeting, they are not a charity. I was a proponent of selling those techs to C3B ourselves! For gpt! Since they had a penalty that they were paying anyways, they would have had to pay the bulk of it anyways.

Now...all of this aside. What can we expect from CDZ? That they are unsure of the situation and are simply selling to both sides what they had (something we would probably have done in their situation). They are treating the game the way they would have if the Joker incident had never happened, and I agree that they should! The incident is BEHIND US PEOPLE!!! C3B has paid the penalty and should not have to pay a permanent penalty for one individual's actions!

If you want to win, win! C3B and CDZ do not have a secret alliance against us, that is virtually clear from the talks and other information coming through. Even if it were not true, IT IS IRRELEVANT. If they have a complete alliance to destroy us, we can not fight two civs at once, one of them possessing immortals and the other large quantities of cash! So make plans for C3B not having an alliance with CDZ. This is the only logical plan of action.

 

[Ankka]

What do we need from CDZ? They seem to actually be afraid of CGN... too bad we don't have contact wit them yet.

And note that CDZ isn't very much bigger than we are in score... We are catching up again, after tha bad start. We have a chance now.

But I don't know what to do.

 

[Provolution]

However,we can still pretend we do something quite different to these civilizations, pretend we are extremely focussed on the Western Ocean power balance to C3B and extremely focussed on CDZ role with C#B to them, and talk Western Ocean to them too.
Another idea would be to mislead them by concocting an information screen of an alternative story of our strategy, organization, inner conflicts and so on.
Embassies are great for reprogramming the enemies rationale, we should do that to both.