Celtic Mod v2.0 Release

[Baldyr]

Also, is there a way to disable the "don't spawn if a unit is in an adjacent square" thing? Or is there a truly compelling reason that should be left in?

Yes, I've disabled some stuff in Barbs.py in my own mod/game/whatever. So now the code doesn't take any notice of units or culture, among other things. (I also added code to spread foreign culture in tiles. I created Poland with Independent cities this way.) But as I've learned more and more Python I've also realized that I could have just made my own code instead of breaking Rhye's... It works nonetheless.

If you wanna use something like that it would require a lot of testing to make absolutely sure no issues arise from doing so. There might be good reasons for Rhye to have put those limitations in there, but it might also just be to somewhat "hide" the spawns. (It would seem like the city was actually founded outside of view.)

 

[antaine]

I'd just assumed it was to prevent the human from camping the location with a stack and sacking it the minute it appeared.

btw - just had the first test run where the Celts were still alive at turn 330, with only Ireland, achieved one UHV, stayed stable, and actually founded Nova Scotia.

 

[Baldyr]

I'd just assumed it was to prevent the human from camping the location with a stack and sacking it the minute it appeared.

Na, when I disabled the limitations all units on the spot got moved outside the cultural borders. So it would be the same as camping outside the location.

You know what, I actually think I'll get rid off all my own issues with city spawns this weekend by creating new code and restore Rhye's code to its original shape. This time I'll get it right (since I actually know what I'm doing) and gain total control over my city spawns. Plot-culture, preset buildings, religions, the works. Why settle with anything less when the power is right there at your fingertips?

You could of course use the new code also, if you want to. It'll be in a separate .py file altogether so there would be no need for me to edit any of your stuff. I think I'll post it on the forums as a mod component for anyone to use. City spawning might be the most obvious entry point for Python modding within the RFC setup - as it was for me and I believe also you - so that would give more people incentive to get involved in modding.

 

[antaine]

Well, I'd love to learn more, but after sleeping on it I think I'm going to leave the city spawns alone as well. some not popping up provides variety. to the development.

Two things I wish I could fix...First, I wish that the English were more aggressive with the Celts (especially since they don't collapse in the middle ages every time now) and with building culture...French culture usually pushes in all around London while they just sit there building archers.

Second, the English seem to like sending colonists into sweden and northern russia (around arkangel) before it ever occurs to them to attack the three cities on the island to their west. I think making the English automatically at war with both independents might help that...I can see them not bothering to declare war when they're off their main island, but still. Perhaps automatic war with the celts would be helpful as well.

I don't want to make things *too* hard for the human, but I don't want to automatically prevent the British Empire when the Celts are non-human.

 

[Baldyr]

By the way, I let a session of autoplay run its course last night while doing something else, and once it was done I noticed that the Celts had respawned with half of Britain and western France. So I took a closer look at your Consts.py and realized that you enlarged the Celtic Normal Area. Maybe i shouldn't question your judgment on this, but wasn't the idea to have the Celts respawn as the Republic of Ireland?

 

[antaine]

I've yet to see them respawn...ever...

Still, consider that a revitalized pan-celtic nation, if established today, could include ireland, scotland, wales, brittany, the isle of man (not on the civ map) and possibly cornwall.

I needed to enlarge the normal area (which was actually done way, way back) to aid flipping (as it is, the vikings usually claim edinburgh when the celts are AI), desire to expand and possibly provoke collapse with the english spawn.

I thought you also had a resurrection that only flipped ireland and scotland, no?

 

[antaine]

also, did this flip provoke war with france and england? I would imagine that those cities would have been hard for the ai to defend and would have been lost in short order, no?

 

[antaine]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_League_(political_organisation)
"Politically, the Celtic league seeks to create six sovereign states from the six Celtic nations it acknowledges as existing, unified in some way. There is some variation in the understanding of these aims, which ranges from general meetings, to an actual federation along the lines of the Nordic Council."

Not that they're anwhere near achieving an independent Pan-Celtia, but the idea is out there...
http://pl-pl.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=53855795310

Apparently, in your alternate history, these guys succeeded...lol...now, what I want to know is, will it *always* flip five cities if they are available, or could it be less? I could envision an alternate history where Brittany gains its independence in 1921 instead of Ireland, or what have you...

 

[Baldyr]

Well, I'd love to learn more, but after sleeping on it I think I'm going to leave the city spawns alone as well. some not popping up provides variety. to the development.

I'll just create the code and you could use it or not. I know I will use it, as I believe anyone would who tries to create a historical scenario. (Not that that's what you're doing.) It would be as simple to use as substituting the function self.foundCity() with custom.foundCity() and use a separate set of settings and values. I imagine it could be useful to spawn independent Celtic cities with pre-built Duns, for example. Personally I tend to spread some culture around newly founded cities, and this approach will make this less of a hassle also.

Two things I wish I could fix...First, I wish that the English were more aggressive with the Celts (especially since they don't collapse in the middle ages every time now) and with building culture...French culture usually pushes in all around London while they just sit there building archers.

Second, the English seem to like sending colonists into sweden and northern russia (around arkangel) before it ever occurs to them to attack the three cities on the island to their west. I think making the English automatically at war with both independents might help that...I can see them not bothering to declare war when they're off their main island, but still. Perhaps automatic war with the celts would be helpful as well.

I don't want to make things *too* hard for the human, but I don't want to automatically prevent the British Empire when the Celts are non-human.

First of all you can make the English be at war with the Independents by editing Consts.py - even if there would still be a random element to it. You could also increase the probability of the English being at war with the Celts on spawn. (Simply add instances of iCeltia on the their line.)

Secondly, anything you do could always be excluded from either the human player or the AI. So, there could be automatic war between AI England and AI Celts, but not between AI England and human Celts, or between human England and AI Celts. Its just a matter of adding a line of code excluding either the human player or the AI.

Since you mentioned it, I could include a setting in my expanded city spawn function for war-on-spawn. So if flagged "True" (instead of "False") the city would make the Civ who's Core Area the city is encroaching (if any) automatically declare on the city owner. (That would be optional and determined case by case, that is.)

 

[antaine]

another interesting thing...I staggered the Independents that spawn, so they are always neighbors with a different type than themselves. Sometimes, the Celtic tribes in britain prove pushovers and cardiff falls due to culture in short order. Sometimes, the (same type) independents of edinburgh and penzance flip cardiff, and unite into that "celtic league" you mentioned...both historically feasible...good variety there, I think...

 

[Baldyr]

I didn't actually follow any of the autoplay, but I'll attach a autosave. (I also see now that it was only Ireland and western France that flipped, or so it would seem.)

The ideas you put forward are interesting so you could very well be right on this. Since I do believe there is a 5 city limit that could mean different outcomes in different games. I'll just take another look at the code for the specifics and get back to you.

You could try and run autoplays as the Americans and give yourself (as Washington) Calendar and Nationalism (after the Celts have collapsed). Once you give yourself the latter respawning will be enabled and its only a matter of time before they reappear. There is a period of no-spawn for any collapsed Civ though, so you'd have to wait for some number of turns before they are enabled again. This is a pretty sure way of testing it, even if the actual respawn would happen in the wrong era.

If you enable the game option Random Seed on Reload (in the WB save) you can reload the same autosave several times to get different outcomes.

 

[antaine]

so, what do you think of the following re: english colonizing russia and scandinavia:

I place a deep ocean at the tip of denmark, cutting off galley passage to the baltic sea, and a deep ocean at the north tip of norway (nordkapp) to prevent galley passage over the kola peninsula?

the english may yet land a settler around oslo or something, but it would force them to look west more than east for expansion opportunities, no?

or would this mess with a balance issue i'm not seeing?

 

[Baldyr]

I place a deep ocean at the tip of denmark, cutting off galley passage to the baltic sea, and a deep ocean at the north tip of norway (nordkapp) to prevent galley passage over the kola peninsula?

I'd say test anything if you got the time to spare.

the english may yet land a settler around oslo or something, but it would force them to look west more than east for expansion opportunities, no?

I believe the better route would be to see to it that those areas are already populated, so that the English have nowhere to settle those cities. Spawning more cities works. Or take away the English Settlers as they are no longer needed for populating Britain.

or would this mess with a balance issue i'm not seeing?

Balance is an issue that will have to be tested and maybe tweaked down the line. But you're already nearing the point of making this a scenario instead of a version of RFC - with the addition of Celts.

You should probably take away everything but some of you additional city spawn if you really wanna call it RFC. But I'm personally all for going the scenario route, so you'll hear no complaints from me.

 

[antaine]

I took away England's settlers...they build more and send them there. I guess self-spawing might be the way to go, but still...that might throw off other things...I'm going to try testing the tiles first

 

[Baldyr]

I took away England's settlers...they build more and send them there. I guess self-spawing might be the way to go, but still...that might throw off other things...I'm going to try testing the tiles first

Yeah, you do that. But also consider what the consequences will be to other Civs. You'd still want the modmod to be fully viable to play as the Viking - with Celts thrown in - right?

Civs settling via the northern passage above Scandinavia is something that bugs me also, so I think I might add some Ice there to prevent passage. I believe someone actually made a modmod with dynamic terrain, so I might just hijack his code for it.

Did you know that the Ocean tile separating Iceland from Britain turns into a Coast tile once the Vikings discover some Tech? (So that they may colonize without Astronomy.) So Rhye uses this also...

About city spawns, I think I'll eventually end up spawning all the cities on the map... Since I've already done Russian territories and Germany, and am pretty much doing Scandinavia as the moment, there really isn't a good reason to stop. It adds so much the mod to have different areas populated without the AIs totally messing everything up. I'll definitely look at your work once I get to spawning the Celtic iron age settlements. Maybe I'll end up with a game without buildable Settlers, then?

 

[antaine]

well, you'll still want buildable settlers for later or razed cities. I've decided to put ocean at the top of Norway, this way the Russian arctic fleet can pass (if there ever is such a thing) but not until astronomy. I didn't cut off the baltic, I spawned oslo and stockholm (and enabled nidaros and a redundant uppsala). I also gave the russians more units and settlers to start, but i still wind up with a german russia and russians in only moscow...might needs spawns there as well...

 

[Baldyr]

I checked the respawn code again and it turns out I was getting confused with regular spawning. As it turns out, the 5 city limit is for the initial spawn, not the respawn.

When a resurrection happens its the mostly the stability of the owner of the cities that determine which are lost. Because the conditions for flip vary with stabiltity. This is why a stable England would loose few to none cities during a Celtic respawn, while an unstable France might loose all cities inside the Normal Area, or vice versa. The important thing would be that the results may vary from session to session, even if some outcomes might be more or less usual.

 

[antaine]

I've had France turn out to be a powerhouse, taking over indy cities in ireland after collapse, as well as the dutch and romans, and i've had paris taken over by the dutch and the spanish take everything else...i think that kind of outcome would be relatively random.

 

[Baldyr]

I also gave the russians more units and settlers to start, but i still wind up with a german russia and russians in only moscow...might needs spawns there as well...

Yeah, the AI behavior is pretty universal and you'll only end up spawning the cities of all Civs. If that is the route you wanna take, that would require quite a lot of testing (with about every Civ in the game).

Maybe you should keep it as simple as possible and to hell with stupid/weird AI behavior. If you've already done what you can in the Settler maps, no one can really blame you for the way the game is designed.

The root of the problem would be the city spawns you've added. They take away the land the other Civs use to expand, so they end up expanding into some other territory. The problem will transplant itself in different areas as this settling hurts both its own stability and the stability of the land-owner Civ.

And by spawning yet more cities in another area you simply move these problems further and further away...

 

[antaine]

heh...yeah, but i might move the "problem" to siberia and the russians, which would actually be okay...

honestly, though, i *think* i'm leaving it alone after this...