Challenge to warmongers

[The Snug]

most good warmongers are actually really good players, warmongering to build a larger empire wich flows onto more ciries-more prod/research. Even when playing a builders game it is worthwhile doing some early axe rushes etc for the required land. warmongering doesnt make it unsustanable. i often warmonger to gain land, and probably keep more cities than i should (i see some GOTM warmongerers razing nearly everything), turning captured cities into productive cities may take some time, but the resulting huge teritory fuels even larger production and war mongering. upkeep may be a pain, but once the newly captured cities build their required buildings and their cottages level up then they also add to the productivity and tec research speed. thus all fueling a even larger army and more war mongering.

Warmongering->teritory
teritory->productive teritory after time
productive teritory->tec lead
tec lead->more war mongering.

in such a large map good players would be able to consolidate their captured lands while still continuing to expand. having the largest teritory flows into more power. on such a map setting a war monger would do MUCH better than a turteler just building. so how can you state that warmongering is flawed when it gives the necisary decicive advantage over the AI.

How can you not account for the quadratcially mounting costs of maintenance?

 

[The Snug]

As much as the OP was obviously trolling a bit, the idea does appeal to my warmonger side...I *just* played my first modded game, using the 40civ mod for 3.19 (34 civs actually in, of course...) and I still only play on noble, but...I think I'd like to give it a whirl...34 was great, why not 50? Nothing like having miningInc bringing 35+ hammers per turn per city, right?

So, for someone brand new to adding mods...I'd need 16 civs to round out the 50 for that challenge...are there that many good civs that are 3.19 compatabile? Any rec's on which 16? And rec's for a world generator to use? I used a huge global-highlander for my 34-civ game, how do I do the larger-than-huge size? And it was easy enough to run the 40-civ mod - to do *this* challenge, would I have to merge all those civs into a single mod with the 50-civ mod? That whole aspect of modding isn't clear to me yet...

You can get the 50 civ dll for 3.19 from here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8298114#post8298114

You'll want to use the Civ Gold 5.0 mod, as it adds 100+ civs.

And you'll want either the planet generator or smartmap map script to use extra huge maps.

 

[Thorleif]

As has been said before, what's the point of using extreme, modded, and unbalanced settings to prove that a play style (that might or might not work in a nonmodded game, I'm no monarch/emperor player) is "flawed"?

I think a tactic that works in most situations should be considered everything but flawed, one that needs modded extra huge map high difficulty 50 civs to face a problem must be awesome.

This being said, I'm still a Noble player, so I can't really say much in the debate regarding what tactic is best.

Thorleif

 

[NoXDante]

The_Snug, please post links to how to enable a larger than huge map, and the 50 civs (which I see you've already posted, thanks, but a single post for both would be great!), and I will gladly take you up on your challenge.

More civs = better for warmongerer, no tech trading really isn't that bad, because the AI is inflicted by the same problem, and peacefull civs tend to have more friends to trade techs to than the warmongerer. In any event, I'm a fierce warmongerer, and am happy to DOW ASAP and keep it up all game long.

My only question is, what are the victory settings? Everything? Because if you allow for all victory settings this automatically makes someone less warmonger-ish. At some point a cultural or space victory is just too easy to pass up if you are in dominant position with your settings - make it domination/conquest instead?

Please post the necessary mods to the basic BTS to do this, and even a save if you like. This sounds like a great challenge!

I loaded the Planet Generator with the max size, but I can't choose max 50 civs, even though I saved the dll in the MODs folder. This is prolly a Q for the Mod forum, but can you guys help here? I just wanna play these settings asap.

Edit: I figured it all out, holy cow this thread was a damnit-figure-out-what-modding-means for civ4 for me. Great already! I'm excited to try this. I have to say I agree with DMOC 100%, that the AI will be preoccupied with each other a lot, and marathon speed = ez mode. I anticipate getting a lot of land and then, well, what can the AI do to stop me? You seem to have set up settings that are actually easier for a warmonger. But we will see! Starting game now. Will post updates from here on out.

Thanks!

 

[DMOC]

Alright, here's a challenge to all of you unthinking, dimwitted warmongers. Play on a gigamap pangea or a huge great lakes (no oceans) map with 50 civs, no tech trading, raging barbarians, marathon setting, and either Monarch or Emperor level, and let's see how well your 'go-bonk-some-heads' strategy works.

I'll bet that most of you will get your ass kicked before rifles even appear; having become carrion for crows. For the vast majority of you, I predict the death of your civilization when Curassiers appear.

Now this challenge is for warmongers only (not for builders or for other sane types of civ players). I assert that the warmonger strategy is fundamentally flawed, and that these conditions will demonstrate that assertion.

When you only play with a handful of civs, taking 1 or 2 of them out early is significant. With 50 civs, taking 1 or 2 civs out early means nothing, and trying to take another couple out after religions spread is tantamount to suicide.

Good luck, you horde of stupid, uncontemplative, barbarian neanderthalls. I won't mourn your passing.

The settings you describe make for an incredibly easy game, since with 50 civs everyone will have a worst enemy and wars will be declared by the dozen. With high difficulty levels, the AI's can defend better with more archers, thus slowing down any super aggressive AI who wants to vassal everyone. And marathon speed? Eh .

The no tech trading means that AI's cant call upon each other for help when I'm at war with them. Even easier for me.

 

[The Snug]

Here's Civ Gold
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12887

Here's links to the map scripts.
You'll need to use the map size override option, which I believe is the last option in both.
So start a custom game, and then choose map type: look for the smartmap or planet_generator
After selecting one of those, they will give you tons of options. I was using a map size two levels beyond huge, but also a great lakes maps (so no ocean, which means a ton of land). With these options, there is just a ton more land than any of you have ever experienced before; 4-5 times the size of any huge map.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=180995
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154989

 

[The Snug]

The settings you describe make for an incredibly easy game, since with 50 civs everyone will have a worst enemy and wars will be declared by the dozen. With high difficulty levels, the AI's can defend better with more archers, thus slowing down any super aggressive AI who wants to vassal everyone. And marathon speed? Eh .

The no tech trading means that AI's cant call upon each other for help when I'm at war with them. Even easier for me.

I don't believe your air-puffing. You have no idea what you're getting into to.

 

[NoXDante]

Here's Civ Gold
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12887

Here's links to the map scripts.
You'll need to use the map size override option, which I believe is the last option in both.
So start a custom game, and then choose map type: look for the smartmap or planet_generator
After selecting one of those, they will give you tons of options. I was using a map size two levels beyond huge, but also a great lakes maps (so no ocean, which means a ton of land). With these options, there is just a ton more land than any of you have ever experienced before; 4-5 times the size of any huge map.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=180995
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154989

Thanks Snug! I used planet generator and the max map size with 50 civs, 1 continent, and all your other specs, I hope that is OK.

Great challenge. Thanks for making me use a mod, and try something new

Edit: I got a top of the line comp 2 months ago, and this map is taking minutes to load. HOLY COW! I think I'm more excited than before, but this challenge definately isn't OK for anyone without a great comp. My poor 5 year old alienware would've blown up by now.

 

[Thorleif]

Thanks Snug! I used planet generator and the max map size with 50 civs, 1 continent, and all your other specs, I hope that is OK.

Great challenge. Thanks for making me use a mod, and try something new

Edit: I got a top of the line comp 2 months ago, and this map is taking minutes to load. HOLY COW! I think I'm more excited than before, but this challenge definately isn't OK for anyone without a great comp. My poor 5 year old alienware would've blown up by now.

Looking forward to seeing your results Keep us posted.

 

[The Snug]

Good luck to ya'. It should be fun. You'll have to post screenshots rather than saves, bcz ppl won't be able to load it without the above requirements.

 

[Rockies]

Well damn....got the map script and Gold installed, loaded the mod...took about 5 minutes from "load the mod" till my BTS screen came back...but the menu doesn't print out now...I know the links are there, just not displayed...I can click down the page and get them to click, but...nothing loads. Had no trouble with the 40-civ mod loading at all. Any ideas?

One other odd behavior....after using the esc key to back out of the game, the double-left click on my mouse no longer behaves as it did - instead of 'opening' whatever it was, I get the "open"/etc dialog box.

 

[sosasoser]

I've ended up playing similar game to this using RevolutionDCM Mod. Started out on the largest map I could get with 35 civs IIRC. There was still plenty of room on the map at the start and with barbarian civs turned on there was quickly at least 50 civs. I made up to the renaissance era before giving up as it was just too much for my computer to handle. A couple of notes on how the game was shaping up:

1) The AIs were at constant warfare with each other, usually resulting in a dogpile on one poor civ at a time.
2) Most of the AI civs were small and weak. This was undoubtedly in part due to the AIs inability to handle the Revolutions mod very well, in my opinion.
3) As soon as I teched Fuedalism, I had 4 or 5 offers to be my vassal. A couple of these civs were so far away from my starting location that I hadn't actually found their location yet.
4) Maintainence costs were going to become a huge issue. I was going to desperately need the event that reduces inflation.
5) I built the Great Wall and it was my BEST offensive weapon in that game. I had a few cities that were constantly wanting to revolt every so often. Since all civs were being they used, they revolted to the barbs. Which resulted in a bunch of barbs spawning in my borders and being instantly transported out. Kept my neighbors weak all game.
6) The game would have taken me months to finish.

 

[Rockies]

Well, I was looking for an excuse to get a new video card...the old 256M one was getting a little old...so got a GEForce GTS250 - 1G onboard ram and nice clock speeds, etc....loaded the 50civ mod...took 7 minutes still --but it loaded,and the menu's worked this time...so did custom game...but it only would allow me to do the stock 18 civ-limit...any ideas? It said the mod was loaded...and the 40civ mod works fine still. May just have to go with 34 civs instead of 50 at this rate...could it be something about being 3.19?

 

[The Snug]

Did you use the 50 civ dll that I posted?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I don't believe your air-puffing. You have no idea what you're getting into to.

Believe it. DMOC or any other random deity player would walk all over the suggested settings without much effort. Now switch the game speed from "marathon" to "quick" and you have yourself a headache .

 

[Rockies]

Did you use the 50 civ dll that I posted?

Yup -- it was huge, took a while to load, but....18 civs

 

[DMOC]

I don't believe your air-puffing. You have no idea what you're getting into to.

I started up a 50 civ pangea game playing as Darius I on monarch difficulty. After playing up to about turn 100, I'm starting to wish I used immortal. (I used epic speed instead of marathon since marathon means even more time, etc.)

I can post the game, if you want. Won't ever finish it though (lack of time ).

 

[Rockies]

Since I couldn't get the 50-civ mod to load, I went ahead and started up a 2xhuge with 34 civs using the 40-civ mod. I'd done some putzing around on 160x100/34, and that was ok performance-wise...but the 2xHuge is already slowing to 90-120 seconds between turns and its only 2000BC....not a good sign...and this on a Pentium4/3.72Ghz with 3G ram...the civ.exe process is already at 1.47G in size. This may just be the "A bridge too far" of world sizes. All the space is great, but...with 34 civs instead of 50, and raging barbarians, what world size would still be "suitable" in your view, snug?

Strategy wise, I'm going with Charlemagne - the Rathouse is just too good for this layout to pass on, and he's in the hunt for the founding religions...my initial plan is to get Buddism and Judaism both; and Stonehenge and the Oracle, and - of course - the Great Wall. With all this space, no other country will be visiting soon, so some wonderwhoring can be indulged in....want to max great prophet points in the cap, so I can found as many religions as possible and get the shrines built to pay for Rex costs.

Started the game...got Buddism -- objective one met! Got all kinds of room in this world...went straight for the Great Wall, as my test games showed that the Barbs would start showing up before I could Stonehenge and THEN the Wall. 2695BC, got the GW and start on SH...unfortunately, someone beats me to it at 2560BC....I was only 8 turns short...and I didn't have Slavery yet. Oh well, 2 out of the first 3 aint bad. 2250 BC and I'm working on the Oracle....NOW I have slavery...and I'm paranoid that someone's going to beat me to it -- so when it gets to 1 pop to rush it, I rush it and get it...can't get COL yet, so I go with Monarchy so I can get my populations a little higher. 1950BC and I found Judaism -- so that's 4 out of the first 5 objectives met...turns still at 100 seconds...not good.

 

[Rockies]

Well, finished the game last night...still not sure why this setup would be considered so hard...given the GreatWall, having the raging barbarians just made it easier, not harder. I suppose if the game were modded so that the GW gave you a wall in every city and some culture instead of keeping out the Barbs, it might have been more challenging. The Barbs took out several civs before the AI's and myself expanded out enough to make them not an issue anymore. Given 2 of the 3 early religions and the Rathaus, I had the money to expand quicker, and become the economic/tech powerhouse. Thru the middlegame I was only about 3-4th power-wise, but only once was I really threatened when Nappy and his vassals attacked with local superiority of forces - I dug in, brought in seige weapons to beat up his SOD once it got into my land, and didn't lose a single city...and that was the closest I came to losing one all game. Ended up with a Domination win in the 1570 timerange, and was already tech'ing Future-tech-5 at that point.

Point -> warmongerers