Discussion in 'Civ3 - Multi-site Demo Game: High Council' started by FortyJ, Apr 1, 2003.
I'll be there.
BTW: Post #3000!
Congratulations Octavian !
I'll do everything I can to be there, it should be really interesting.
Is it possible to move the meeting a little?
It's currently planed to 3 AM in Europe. And I got a math-test on Friday.
Regrettably, I cannot dedicate the time needed to conduct a meeting of this magnitude at an earlier time of day this week. But fear not, the session will be logged and that log will be posted in this thread so you can catch up on everything and post your thoughts/concerns after you ace your test. Good luck!
I am starting to be convinced into early wars. With my new experience on monarch level, I have discovered that early wars almost always assure victory.
Also, don't be scared to ask them questions that you know they'll be too secretive to answer, or deny. It is a little harder on the internet, but you can often figure out the answer just by the time it takes them to decide, and the way they answer.
So may I request that the chat logs be submitted with the time of message option on.
And if anybody else does the same to us, say we have a policy of waiting 24hrs before answering questions about our ingame progress.
That sounds like a good idea. A rule that we will need time to answer a question, no matter how sensitive it is, will assure that we wont let any info out.
Though the other teams will surely copy such a system...
By the way, how are the discussions progressing with GameCatcher?
I had the opportunity to chat with the Gamecatcher ambassador (Eklektikos) today. Here are some key points:
They claim to not have discovered anything new in recent turns.
Their 2nd warrior is merely scouting the area - taking a look around, so to speak.
They were interested to know why we've parked a warrior next to their borders. I told them he was there to protect them from barbarian attacks.
They claim to not have come into contact with any other nations at this time.
Keeping everything secret is going to be a hard task in this game. Therefore, I believe our best approach to handling all talks with our rivals will be through misdirection. What I mean by this, is simply this: tell them all sorts of things, regardless of their veracity. If they're contradictory in nature, all the better. The idea is, to keep them guessing as to our actual situation for as long as possible.
The trick is to do this in a way that doesn't permanently damage our reputation. And this is a very fine line to walk. The key is to not commit to something that you cannot commit to (ie. don't promise not to attack a tile if you know you're about to do so). Vague references to internal problems (which can be corrected in miraculous fashion and in record time if need be ) or references to intentions and plans (which can change overnight) are the key to this strategy.
Our biggest problem is that they think we're gearing up for war, which of course, we are. However, if we can somehow convince them that we aren't a threat after all, then our job gets easier. So, while I was attempting to gather some information about them, I tried to paint a picture of disarray and confusion.
Bah, it was CivGeneral who forgot the pics for two turns, not me. I'm not on the internet ALL the time.
Unfortunately, I may have to disagree with your plans of deception. It may make sense diplomatically, but I have always been one to be honest in all my affairs. I would be against such tactics.
Ditto. There is a good way to say nothing by saying a lot of empty words (I'm good at that ;-) )
I never said it was you who forgot the pics. I also don't think that not having pics for two consecutive turns is as catastrophic or as harmful as I might have led Eklektikos to believe.
Truth is, we are fairly well informed of what's happening in the game, and we all have a general consensus of what we want to do. There is no harm in allowing Gamecatcher to think that we are in a slight state of disarray. They already fear an attack from us. These comments may help them to think differently, which will certainly be to our advantage.
As far as my tactics of deception are concerned, I too try not to blatantly lie about anything. It's not a good strategy for long term survival. However, I will continue to shield the truth from our enemies as long as it is necessary or viable to do so.
Keep in mind, that if our earlier conjecture is correct about them having already met Apolyton, then it is they that are lying outright to us.
In closing, let me reassert that my comments in this recent chat were intended to present an image of confusion or disorganization to the Gamecatcher alliance. If they consider us a threat, and see that we are organized and growing strong and preparing for war, then they will mobilize to defend against us. On the other hand, if they see that we are divided or lack the necessary unity of purpose to effectively execute an invasion, then they may perhaps lower their guard.
By the way, we now know that they met AT LEAST another civ, so they're lying to us and I wouldn't trust them on a matter of importance. I don't believe their word on peaceful coexistance neither...
Maybe they met CDG like we did?
The disinformation thing could really come around and hit us on the ass. The only thing I am totally for is hinting lightly that we are having domestic problems--but done in such a way that they come to that conclusion by analyzing the transcript.
The comments made by Kentonio have some really strong implications. Specifically, he commented that we (referring to Fanatikou) now had 2 neighbors. This implies that they had already been made aware that we were in contact with somebody. Unless someone from our team had slipped this information to CDG previously, then Gamecatcher must have. I doubt very seriously that this could have happened in less than one day.
No, there has been deceipt on several levels with respect to Gamecatcher, and it's going to be stopping very shortly.
With respect to my previous policy of deception towards Gamecatcher, contact with CDG and the increase in troops near Balance of Power now forces us to alter that strategy a bit. Remember, the idea of that strategy was to lull them to sleep (ie. let them think we're not a threat). However, it now seems like they're the threat and we must prepare (and negotiate) accordingly.
Personally, I think that if CDG is on the eastern side of the northern land bridge, and if they are in contact with Gamecatcher too (which I think is a given), then Gamecatcher may well be out of room. They may need to expand into "our" side of the southern land bridge. If so, we are hardly prepared to stop them at this time.
However, if they opt to declare war and march their troops all the way across the mountains (remember, they probably don't know where we are yet...), we'll be making swordsmen by the time they reach us.
In the meantime, we need to get Iron Working fast, and have a settler ready to go almost immediately afterwards. I also want to consider cutting down the forest due north of Shen Ling again, but that's a discussion worthy of a new thread.
I read through the transcript and I must say 2 things:
1) I agree with you 40J that they are being way too agressive. We are much more open then they are.
2) there were WAY too many winking smilies!
Just a hint here. Please, when we are in negotiations, consult with either the (in order) appropriate ambassador, foreign minister or the DP. This will definetly help keep extra information form getting out, and will also streamline negotiations.
You noticed that too, eh?
Great point Noldodan! Already today, there was almost a breach of protocol in the #civfanatics chat room. Let us all be extra careful when talking about MSDG information to not use the general chat rooms.
All MSDG discussions should be done in either personal chats (ie. one-on-one) or in the following rooms: #demogame_CFC_MSDG or #demogame_CFC_Embassy.
From what I understood from Kentonio, Elucidia does know of the Gamecatcher Alliance.
As a sign of trust, I promised Kentonio that we would not inform Gamecatcher of our meeting.
DO NOT REVEAL TO ANY TO ANY CITIZEN OF GAMECATCHER THAT WE HAVE MADE CONTACT WITH CDG.
If they want to expand in our lands, that's fine for me since they'll be producing settlers instead of military units and we'll be able to liberate those cities soon. I thought we all agreed on that? If they want to go militaristic, well fine for them for the moment but by the time their troops come, we'll have swordmen and we'll be able to have fun. They don't know where we are and what kind of land there is between us, a disavantage we don't have and that we should use wisely.
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