Changing Trainer

[MagisterCultuum]

How about completly reworking the trainer mechanic:

Each tern Govannon would (automatically) teach 1 randomly selected mana based promation that the already has to 1 random unit on his tile (and maybe also adjacent tiles). This would include levels 2 and 3, but much more rarely. He could also have a chance of teaching Sorcery and each level of Channeling (fairly high for Channeling I, very low for Channeling III).

This would let Amurite units become much stronger in magic, but be a less easily abused power. Imo, it fits better flavorwise; he refuses to submit to the regulations of the Amurite magical bureaucracy, so why should they (the player) get to choose what he teaches to whom?

It would probably work well if Trainer simply randomly gave one promotion the unit has to another unit on the tile, but the chances were based on the level for each for each promotion. This would also help balance Doviello; now that metal promotions work for everyone they need a boost. In my first Doviello game I was very disappointed. The only bonus their Battlemasters had was the ability to train new ones at the full price. This was pretty much useless since I was not at war or in a good position to start one at the time.

 

[Dark Russell]

I think for every magical promotion or spell taught to a unit, the units strength should drop by 1 to a minimum of 1 to reflect the time spent training in magic.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think for every magical promotion or spell taught to a unit, the units strength should drop by 1 to a minimum of 1 to reflect the time spent training in magic.

I don't think that goes very well with the changes I just proposed, since training would not be a voluntary thing. Any unit guarding Govannon would eventually become very weak. I guess one point is acceptable, but one per spell? It would make more since for the trained units to be unable to move for a turn or two (or perhaps it would need to stay on the same tile os Govannon for a while, whether he moves or not).

I'm thinking that the ability should randomly choose one promotion that the unit has and then randomly choose one unit that does not have the it. If all units have it, no one will be trained. Once it chooses a unit to train there it should randomly determine whether the training suceedes. For the lowest level promos the chances should be perhaps 95%, while something like Channeling III would have about a 1% chance of working. This might actually make it unwise for Govannon to learn more, higher level spells, since it decreses his ability to teach effectively. This might be enough to justify giving him the Hero promotion. That way, he could learn Twicast and maybee, just maybee teach it to a few other units.

There are some promotion that shouldn't be trainable, such as Hero, Heroic Strength I-II, Golem, diseased, sommuned, Vulnerable to fire, ect. For Govannon, these should also include Combat I-IV. Perhaps these promotions could still be considered when deciding what he should train each tern, but blocked. That way govannon does not become a military instructor for your melee units and is penalized for having too many upgrades. Also, since these are pre-requisites for Twincast, it makes an army of twincasting Summoners/Mages approprately costly.

Imo, Barnaxus should also get the trainer promotion, with the changes I proposed. The Civilopedia says that he teaches things both to other golems and to the people of the Luichurp. One problem with that is a properly promoted Barnaxus could upgrade Wood Golems to Iron Golems if we leave a Battlemaster's use of it the same. Also, I think only living units can be trained, and golems are not living. The code would need to check if the unit was Barnaxus, and then allow training golems if true. It might also need to check to see if a trainer is a Battlemaster in order to use "Train Maceman," if they are to keep this ability. Personally, I think this ablity should be changed to upgrade melee units in general at a reduced cost. Both changes would make Doviello a much better choice and fit their theme well.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think it would be nice if religions could spread in a similar way: Priest units and those with Evangelizm should have a chance to"Indoctrinate" the units nearby into their religions. Perhaps Disciple units and, to a lesser degree, all units with a religious promotion could do this, but not as sucessfully. This would be powerful for Basium and Hyborem.

Maybe the Dragon promotion could spread the Cult of the Dragon. If a few priests secretly join the cult it could spread like wildfire. If and when they restore the defection chance for these units this could also be powerful.

It make sense if a Luonnatar had the opposite ability, a chance to remove religious promotions from any unit nearby.

 

[feydras]

Some great ideas MC.

- feydras

 

[thapagan]

It would be nice if Barnaxus could teach a few other promotions.
My current Barnaxus has mobilty, "comannodo" (use enemy roads/first stike)
and forresty as well as 5 stars.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

That is why I propose giving him trainer. Apperently he use to give all Luichurp golems each promotion he had, but this was deemed to powerful. This way he still teaches them, but not necessarily to all of them.

 

[eerr]

That is why I propose giving him trainer. Apperently he use to give all Luichurp golems each promotion he had, but this was deemed to powerful. This way he still teaches them, but not necessarily to all of them.

twas' only combat, but it got nerfed to give empower instead(empower for every combat promotion on barnaxus

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Ok. I had already given my support to letting Barnaxus teach all of his other promotions to other golems before I proposed giving him the modified Trainer promo, and would be fine with either one. Both seem like too much.

However, I still think that trainer should be changed for the benifit of those units that have it already. Originally I just wanted Govannon to be able to train other spell spheres in the way he currently teaches them, but I find the new system much more interesting. It could conceivable mean making every unit in you empire have all the powers of an Archmage in every sphere, yet would be be difficult to abuse, reducesmicro-management, and fits well flavorwise.

 

[MrUnderhill]

Maybe we could add a "Purchase XP" spell to the Trainer promotion, that would let units of the same class as the trainer (ex. Arcane units for Govannon, Melee for Battlemaster, etc.) level up immediately for a price (3 gold to 1 XP sounds fair).

This would be very useful to Govannon, as not only can he give Adepts more spells than he can now, but he can "gold-rush" fresh Adepts to Mage status with 4 purchases, and Archmage with 6, giving the Amurites a very fast, very renewable source of spellcasters (provided you have enough money). As a limit to this ability, perhaps you shouldn't be able to rush a unit past the trainer's level (i.e. to train an Archmage, Govannon has to be level 6 himself, which could take a while as he doesn't have the Hero promotion).

In addition, perhaps the Battlemaster's training ability could be replaced by simply making a trainer unit into a mobile upgrade point for any units in the trainer's unit type (i.e. Govannon would be able to upgrade adepts to mages, Barnaxus would be able to upgrade golems on the go, Battlemasters could upgrade warriors as well as axemen, etc.). This would require a little SDK work, but it's more elegant than adding a spell for every possible upgrade.

 

[Saien]

As Amurite, I have never had any trouble getting Adepts "born" with enough exp to immediately become a mage. Not by the time I have Govannan anyways.

10 exp is trivial, with one mana node or holy shrine you can do it without wonders.

23 is actually possible, but you'll be basically winning a Tower victory anyways.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The problem with MrUnderhill's idea is it makes the Trainer promotion worthless if you are poor. Also, I wasn't proposing that we create so many spells, my idea would eliminate those already present. The promotion itself would cause other promotions to spread. The mechanic for this is pretty much already there, used for spreading disease. This would also let Trainers go about their business, actually using there spells or attacking, thus reducing micro-management.

Giving units the ability to upgrade while in cities, forts, or on the same tile as a unit with Trainer might be a good idea. I don't think that the Golems can usually be upgraded, which makes sense flavorwise. Getting the ability to upgrade them to their normal upgrades or buy xp for them would be quite useless.

 

[MrUnderhill]

@Magister: Ah, sorry, I misspoke (miswrote?) about the spell thing. I wasn't talking about your idea, I was talking about how FfH is now and how to expand it.

The promotion spread model is a good idea, but it'll be a challenge to code it, keep it balanced (we have enough trouble with flesh golems ), teach the AI how to use it properly, and give human players a reason to use it.

My idea was to create a simple mechanic that could be used by any unit for any promotion (provided the unit can get it normally). 3 gold per XP isn't that much, and just like rushing production it's a reward for good management.

That said, if the promotion spread model was separate from Trainer, and unique to Govannon (and maybe Barnaxus), and if it were limited to certain promotions, I'd be fine with it. But for the Trainer promotion itself, we need something less random and more universal.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I actually think that sorcery and maybe even trainer spreading might be a good if the chances were very low. Without sorcery, divine, or summoning the higher level spell sphere (which should also spread much more rarely) are pretty useless.

 

[MrUnderhill]

That's... eh, it's a good fix but requires either a new XML value or a nasty bit of hard-coding. Still, IMO, it'd be better if it was limited to certain promotions and/or unit types.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It's not really a fix, it was in my original post. I realized it would require such coding. I agree that he should never spread some promotions (like casted, elven, dwarven, orc, angel, demon, undead, summoned, vulnerable to fire, poisoned, poisoned blade, diseased, plagued, plague carrier, blitz, elemental, werewolf, Magic Immune, nether blade, Orthus's Axe, pieces of Barnaxus, prophecy mark, navigation II, navigation II, Immortal, etc.) even if he could get them.

He definitely should not be limited to teaching adepts type units. Why should he teach only those who have been accepted into the ranks of a bureaucratic magical institution which he views as corrupt? I might even consider not letting him teach them. Training workers actually fits his character best. I would find it amusing to see Amurite workers who could cast far more spells than most of the magical community, even some archmages. Perhaps the Enchantment promotions could also let them build things faster. Or maybe not.

Maybe they could also add the risk that he might teach a few things to your rivals' units-never to your enemies, but sometimes to those with whom you have open borders.