Chariots --> Knights?

[CaptainPatch]

Something else I've wondered about is the logic in doing this unit upgrade. Why go from a fast, ranged weapon unit to a melee-only unit? There are already _tons_ of melee units, but the ranged weapon units are comparatively rare.

I know at some point, chariots pretty much disappeared from the battlefield. Yeah they were relatively fast, but that speed relied on fairly level ground. And they were susceptible to Combined Arms groups that included missile weapons. But, rather than becoming Knights, wouldn't something like Scythian Horse Archers or Byzantium Cataphracts be a more appropriate upgrade?

 

[redwings1340]

I'll agree with this one. Knights are kind of bad. If you're Arabia or Mongolia though, this isn't a problem

 

[Fredgerd]

It'd certainly be nice if they let accuracy translate to shock, barrage to drill and vice versa.

Otherwise I actually feel this is really good given there are some Civs like the Huns and Assyria who start with a melee siege unit. It makes it so when you upgrade you still have ranged and melee units.

The one that always annoys me is Lancers into Anti-Air Guns into helicopters.

 

[Mudrac]

It'd certainly be nice if they let accuracy translate to shock, barrage to drill and vice versa.

That actually does happen in the game! Barrage and Accuracy stay in Knights abilities, but they count as a bonus during battles as Drill and Shock.

 

[Fredgerd]

I don't think you can uprade them to Drill II and Shock II though. Thats the real bummer with it.

 

[Mudrac]

I don't think you can uprade them to Drill II and Shock II though. Thats the real bummer with it.

Yeah it is a little bummer. But there is a nice gap between Chariot Archer and Knight. So it is quite possible that some of your Chariot Archers (considering they were at wars) have a level 3 Barrage or Accuracy, that's +45% damage. Once your Knights reach level 3 Drill or Shock, you could have Knights that deal 90% more damage on open or rough terrain, that's more strength that Cavalry without promotions.

 

[Fredgerd]

Yeah it is a little bummer. But there is a nice gap between Chariot Archer and Knight. So it is quite possible that some of your Chariot Archers (considering they were at wars) have a level 3 Barrage or Accuracy, that's +45% damage. Once your Knights reach level 3 Drill or Shock, you could have Knights that deal 90% more damage on open or rough terrain, that's more strength that Cavalry without promotions.

You sure it stacks? That seems like an oversight to me if so. Then again so is not having them convert.

I usually just get Medic, Amphibious, Cover and other universal traits until I upgrade.

 

[Mudrac]

You sure it stacks? That seems like an oversight to me if so. Then again so is not having them convert.

I usually just get Medic, Amphibious, Cover and other universal traits until I upgrade.

It does stack on pre-combat screen in one of my games it looked like this:

+15% from Barrage
+30% from Drill

Overall that's +45%.

 

[Peng Qi]

I made a suggestion thread for an upgrade path for Chariots a while back: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=469063

 

[Fredgerd]

Looks cool. On the historical end, I've never heard of mounted crossbows being a thing (be pretty hard to reload), so I'm not so sure about that. But adjusted for historical accuracy its a good idea.

Still, aside from promotions, I think its a pretty small issue compared to Lancers.

 

[Peng Qi]

Looks cool. On the historical end, I've never heard of mounted crossbows being a thing (be pretty hard to reload), so I'm not so sure about that. But adjusted for historical accuracy its a good idea.

Fielded in small numbers by some of the Italian Condattieri. I specifically picked something kind of ineffective because I didn't want it to outshine Keshiks or Camel Archers. Apparently they were also used somewhat extensively by Poland but I don't know much about that.

 

[Babri]

It does stack on pre-combat screen in one of my games it looked like this:

+15% from Barrage
+30% from Drill

Overall that's +45%.

FYI it is a bug. I manually did the calculations & the bonus shown from ranged promo is fake (for melee units such as knights).

 

[Ninakoru]

The returning issue with strange upgrade paths....

- To me it makes more sense they upgrade at ranged and not as mounted: let them upgrade to Crossbowmen.

- Another option is that once you upgrade to a different type, let you reassign promotions ,the mechanic was there long time ago.

- Another option is to change the promotions to something similar/equivalent for a melee unit (IE: Range -> Mobility).

There are many nice solutions, but the devs decided to only let the ranged bonuses apply on the melee unit.

Crap.

 

[Mudrac]

FYI it is a bug. I manually did the calculations & the bonus shown from ranged promo is fake (for melee units such as knights).

Really ?? Then my bad, sorry for the misinformation didn't know it was a bug.

 

[isau]

It actually wouldn't be completely unrealistic for Chariots to upgrade to Ballistas.

I do quite like Chariots and Knights though. They are great for pillaging, which I do much more of in BNW than previously.

 

[Wodan]

Here's an alternative, somewhat crazy idea: change Cavalry (and maybe other rifle-bearing mounted units) to use ranged rather than melee combat (like the gatling gun). Remove the knight from the upgrade path for the chariot. And, probably, remove the Cavalry from the upgrade path of the knight.

If desired to avoid a big gap between chariot archer and cavalry, a generic unit could be added to medieval or renaissance. Like a weak keshik, or a mounted infantry/crossbowman. I looked at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalry_tactics to come up with ideas, and the most historical would seem to be the mounted infantry archer or crossbow. (Ride to battle, then dismount and shoot from foot. The game doesn't really depict mounted infantry / archers currently. But historically it was used quite often and permitted the advantage of mobility without the intensive training needed like the keshiks had.

 

[CaptainPatch]

Had never heard of the Italian mounted crossbows. Unlike horse archers though, I should imagine that they were in fact an early form of dragoon. (Travel mounted, but dismount to fight.) Which, I think, would make for a more appropriate upgrade progression.