How would you upgrade barbarians?

[Takhisis]

I was having a think on civ and sometimes there are pockets of unsettleable terrain e.g. those islands where there are eight mountain and/or marshland tiles in a row and even the AI with its culture bonuses wouldn't reach and was thinking, basically: how would you ‘upgrade’ barbarians to keep them competitive?

Basically this is a thought exercise both for era-specific mods and for all those civ3 remake/offshoot projects that spring up every now and then.

Since barbarians are supposed to be behind in tech:

• The ‘defender’/basic unit i.e. the warrior would have to upgrade to, or be replaced in the spawning list by, first spearman in the Middle Ages, then Rifleman in the Modern Ages, then guerilla/TOW at some points in the last two eras e.g. if at least one civ is at the last era then barbs spawn guerilla and later TOW.
• The offensive unit could upgrade to something with the stats of a mounted warrior (3-1-2) –but without the ethnic touch– and later to a light cavalry like the Cossacks… it'd be hilarious if they were later replaced by more varied units as in a combined arms modern army, spawning artillery, shoulder-launched anti-air missiles to replace the tracked SAMs.
  Maybe, actually, as I write this, I'm thinking that a SAM/artillery could be the ‘defensive’ unit and TOW the modern one, at least to keep to the flavour and character of units in vanilla Civ 3.
• Their sea unit could upgrade to a pirate ship and later to something like a fast torpedo/missile boat with crappy defence but great speed and offence enough to take down a destroyer or even a cruiser.

This is a bit of a think I had on things while trying to work out how to incorporate a Drakkar and similar units into the game.

 

[Quintillus]

I think this is one of the areas where Firaxis has made clear improvements in later iterations (specifically, IV and VI; I lost interest in V early enough that I don't recall how barbarians worked in that iteration).

In IV, while they never become truly modern (or at least, always wind up conquered by then), barbarians do have various units early on, and can be a threat if one neglects their military too much. The combat bonuses against barbarians are much milder than in III. IIRC, you're guaranteed a win in your first three combats against barbarians as a buffer against an unlucky early defeat, but after that, there is little if any bonus against them on the default (Prince, equivalent to Regent) difficulty. And it's not just losing a unit or that their tech, while outdated, slowly improves over time - they can capture cities. I believe I once even was conquered by them entirely when I unwisely used up my free battles while out exploring, and then lost an underprotected Settler and an undefended or poorly defended capital.

I think the latest tech I've seen barbarians use in IV is Riflemen. Can it be more modern? Maybe. But they were using Riflemen when most civs were using Infantry or Tanks.

In VI, they also evolve technologically, and seem to maintain moderately-below-average tech, but closer than in IV. In my current VI game, my Horsemen started being harried by the equivalent of Medieval Infantry, and while the gap between those two is smaller than in III, it was still problematic. They can become pretty advanced, too - I've seen Barbarian Battleships, which is a bit unnerving especially if my navy only has Caravels or Ironclads. I've seen many Workers and Settlers captured by barbarians, including some of my own, and captured Settlers remain Settlers; they also are quite skillful at evading subsequent re-capture by non-barbarians. Barbarians can also destroy (not capture, but outright destroy) cities in VI, and some of my cities have had that fate. Usually, that happens when I send them out with a solitary unit escorting them - a safe bet with all but the weakest defenders in III - and run into two or more barbarian units. Without the huge bonus that III has, it can be difficult to deal with such a situation, and I've learned that I need to be more careful if I want to settle a city in the direction of a barbarian camp.

I also regularly witness some of the AI have stunted development due to nearby barbarians in VI, in a way that doesn't happen so often in III. Barbarians with decent tech and the ability to seriously hinder expansion can do that.

In both cases, I appreciate the greater challenge. I'd say the single biggest thing that can be done in III is removing or majorly nerfing the difficulty-based bonus against barbarians. Remove it altogether, and all of a sudden a "massive barbarian uprising" composing 8-24 Horsemen (depending on barbarian activity level, IIRC) at the end of the Ancient Age is not a minor annoyance but something that can challenge one's defenses, and perhaps wipe out a sizeable treasury, destroy a city's population or improvements, and generally require a response. Setting appropriately-challenging units in period scenarios also makes sense, and while it has a double-edged sword, I'm also partial to the "privateer" approach for barbarians - if their units can enslave units of the non-barbarians, what starts as a mild invasion can become more serious quickly.

But ultimately, III is coded to limit the damage barbarians can inflict. The ability of a city to "swallow" a barbarian invasion and prevent damage to other cities, albeit at the cost of the treasury, means that even the most ill-handled barbarian invasion has a relatively mild upper limit on its damage. Hence why the "Fall of Rome" scenario relies on other civs, not barbarians, for its effect - the barbarians would never make it past the first Roman city at the frontier.

 

[Quintillus]

The last post is a bit long, so I'll split out the other item that Firaxis did that makes barbarians a bit more interesting.

In VI, they have a "barbarian clans" optional mode, where each barbarian settlement has its own identity. They'll also train one unique unit of a civ that isn't in the game - I had to face some lovely Scythian horse archers from my nearby barbarian friends in my current game - and can be interacted with. You can bribe them to not attack you, bribe them to attack someone else (for a higher sum), or hire units from them. They can also evolve into city states based on certain conditions - which are basically one-city civs with some special limitations and mechanics, which are not always fighting everyone like barbarians are.

This, along with their greater threat level, makes them a bit more two-dimensional than the barbarians in III. I will intentionally leave barbarians alone in VI so they can pester my neighbors, whereas in III it's always better to just disperse them for the gold, unless they just had a massive uprising and it isn't worth the hassle. Recruiting a few barbarians (conceptually, basically as mercenaries) can be a viable way of enlarging one's army for a campaign against another civ or other barbarians, if there's enough coin in one's treasury. And if you've got a serious problem on your border, paying them off can buy you time. Just remember that barbarians are only so trustworthy. The barbarians I hired to cross the Great Wall into China couldn't resist a few potshots at my units in the area, and it really wasn't the best use of money I could have found.

This can't really be retrofitted into III; it's a whole game module. But whereas we love to criticize Firaxis, and have our own favorites, whether it's the 3D models of forests in IV or the 1 UPT mechanics of V, I'd argue barbarians are an area that was an afterthought in III but gradually made much more interesting, and has improved future iterations of the series. Now if only the other civs in VI were half as competent militarily as the barbarians are, they'd have something interesting going on. That's something we can be thankful for in III - the Ghuzz may not pose a serious threat to us, but if the Ottomans decide to invade with a bunch of Sipahi, there's a pretty decent chance we're going to lose some cities.

 

[justanick]

I was having a think on civ and sometimes there are pockets of unsettleable terrain e.g. those islands where there are eight mountain and/or marshland tiles in a row and even the AI with its culture bonuses wouldn't reach

If those are actual islands, then no barbarian camps will spawn there. They only spawn on landmasses with a settlement of a civilization.

and was thinking, basically: how would you ‘upgrade’ barbarians to keep them competitive?

There is no good way in Civ3. You are limited to 2+1 units. So that is that. You can replace the Galley with the Privateer or the Man-o-War, the Horseman with the indian War Elephant and warriors with the Ancient Cavalry or the mayan Javalin Thrower.

 

[Civinator]

You can experiment a little bit with the Barbarian option in the Flintlock mod. The Flintlock mod allows Barbarians to capture cities. Here is a screenshot in Debug mode about a city captured by barbarians - and the city is producing a normal warrior. I haven´t noticed that a barbarian city plops up at the start of the game, but may be that this is due to Debug mode, revealing the complete map.

 

[Takhisis]

OK, answering bit by bit:

If those are actual islands, then no barbarian camps will spawn there. They only spawn on landmasses with a settlement of a civilization.

I thought the requirement was simply that civilised units had to have stepped onto the landmass at some point?

Another thing that happens is that usually such islands are where the AI (which knows all terrain beforehand) doesn't settle so it never clears any random fleet of barbarian galleys that pile up. It'd be great to see those eventually either settle the island or upgrade to pirate ships to capture merchantmen or even torpedo boats.

There is no good way in Civ3. You are limited to 2+1 units. So that is that. You can replace the Galley with the Privateer or the Man-o-War, the Horseman with the indian War Elephant and warriors with the Ancient Cavalry or the mayan Javalin Thrower.

Oh, I know that it cannot be done. It's a thought exercise either for ‘what would you do if you started a scenario with most civs in the Middle Ages?’ or ‘what would you do if the engine allowed you to have barbs upgrade according to in-game age?’.

You can experiment a little bit with the Barbarian option in the Flintlock mod. The Flintlock mod allows Barbarians to capture cities. Here is a screenshot in Debug mode about a city captured by barbarians - and the city is producing a normal warrior. I haven´t noticed that a barbarian city plops up at the start of the game, but may be that this is due to Debug mode, revealing the complete map.

View attachment 681056

View attachment 681057

Yes, I know about barbarians capturing cities in the Flintlock mod. In fact, the thought of fully enabling that in any fanmade Civ3 spinoff/remake is what drove me to think: ‘All right, how would you keep barbarians militarily viable?’

In effect, the AI doesn't often clear swamplands and so both marshes and mountains are occupied by means of cultural expansion alone; whenever the inevitable stacks of doom roll across the map and cities get destroyed then next step is the reappearance of warriors and horsemen. I just thought that it'd be far better in terms of flavour and gameplay if those actually 1) had modern weapons and 2) could fight for something. Hence the thought of seeing them deploy maybe a combination of artillery and guerillas. In passing, I must mention I wonder what the barbarian AI would do if given artillery units.

The same for galleys v. torpedo boats. It'd be tremendous, too, if the barbarian AI would just load a couple of units and land them somewhere troublesome, perhaps even to start a new camp.

@Quintillus: I'll keep all of what you say in mind for when I manage to play Civ6. tl;dr: a few months ago, shortly after I acquired Civ6, Steam decided to inflict an ‘up’grade upon itself that bricked my Linux installation. I assume that over the summer (in January?) I'll try and see whether they've finally unbricked their own software and test the stuff.

 

[Quintillus]

@Quintillus: I'll keep all of what you say in mind for when I manage to play Civ6. tl;dr: a few months ago, shortly after I acquired Civ6, Steam decided to inflict an ‘up’grade upon itself that bricked my Linux installation. I assume that over the summer (in January?) I'll try and see whether they've finally unbricked their own software and test the stuff.

Well, that's a bummer. I can't say whether it's working on Linux currently, as my only native Linux install is on a 16-year-old computer with a flaky graphics card - not a likely candidate to be able to run any modern game. I doubt Civ6 will have the staying power of Civ3, but I'm less of an anti-fan of it than I expected I would be.

 

[WildWeazel]

Steam decided to inflict an ‘up’grade upon itself that bricked my Linux installation. I assume that over the summer (in January?) I'll try and see whether they've finally unbricked their own software and test the stuff.

Try the flatpak version, if nothing else it should be less able to do collateral damage

 

[timerover51]

In my games starting in the Ancient Era, I routinely upgrade the Barbarians into Gallic Swordsman with a +3 hit points to bring them up to Regular from Conscript. (I have adjust Combat Experience a tad.) The advanced Barbarian is the Cossack, or sometimes Nomadic Horseman depending on how nasty I feel towards myself. The warship is the Privateer, or the Pirate Ship in Test of Time, again boosted a bit with hit points and combat values. If I start the game in a later era, I boost the Barbarians to Guerilla. The ship depends on what scenario I am playing.

In my trial version of the Storm Over the Pacific scenario, with a generated map, the Barbarians are the Chinese Guerillas or Viet Min Infantry, again boosted, with the ship being in the most recent test, a Furutaka-class Japanese heavy cruiser. I also place Barbarian Camps on the map, and do not forget the one-tile island mountain. It does make for interesting contacts. The advanced Barbarian unit is the T-26 tank, comparable to the U.S. M-3 light tank.

 

[justanick]

Barbarians fielding heavy cruisers seems a bit incompatible with the idea of barbarians.

 

[timerover51]

Barbarians fielding heavy cruisers seems a bit incompatible with the idea of barbarians.

But it makes them competitive in the scenario. I do not view Barbarians as meaning a level of Technology, but much more a form of behavior. They will use the technology of the time to act in ways inimical to society at large.

 

[Takhisis]

Barbarians fielding heavy cruisers seems a bit incompatible with the idea of barbarians.

This is why I mused about just making up a new unit, like a torpedo boat. Which later would upgrade into a missile boat… a fast patrol-type boat armed with four Exocet missiles is ridiculously cost-effective compared to a cruiser or a destroyer in terms of doing a quick in-and-out in terms of ship-to-ship combat. Just look at the regular hit/cost ratios of Qassam rockets versus the Iron Dome for one thing.

But it makes them competitive in the scenario. I do not view Barbarians as meaning a level of Technology, but much more a form of behavior. They will use the technology of the time to act in ways inimical to society at large.

If I could give them extra units I'd make them start insurgencies by having a couple of guerilla units + artillery and indiscriminately bomb the surrounding tiles.

 

[tjs282]

For the M=1 barb-units, I'd have them upgrade through the non-resourced units in the Warrior --> TOW line as you suggest, with changes (ideally) triggered by the number of civs on that landmass which had reached that era/ tech-level.

For the fast-attack land-unit line, I'd have the barb-Horseman upgrade first to a Horse-Archer (using the Keshik assets?) then to a "Mounted Rifleman" (=Cavalry?), and finally a "Technical" in the modern era.

Technical (vehicle) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Takhisis]

Yes, horse archers, hobelars or other such irregular cavalry would fit the bill for a middle-ages barbarian raider unit.

Regarding technicals, now that you mention them there certainly is a pickup-truck-with-machinegun-on-the-back unit available to the Farmers in EFZI. It sort-of could work.

It'd be an extra complication but I've been thinking for a time that with slightly differently set game engine Guerillas could have 2 movement but take 2 movement to get everywhere so they could retreat when attacking/attacked, as opposed to regular infantry, and require chasing down. Nevermind that mechanised infantry seems to just be a lighter tank, btw, but anyway that'd make the barbarian mech inf so much more terrible.

Also it'd be interesting if the barbs could spawn the unit technologically available to the least-developed civ on their continent i.e. they'd spawn spearmen at some point, once everybody had bronze working, and archers, and swordsmen but only if there was iron nearby (6 tiles? they're nomads), and so on.

 

[timerover51]

How do you upgrade Barbarians in the standard Civ3 game?

 

[Civinator]

How do you upgrade Barbarians in the standard Civ3 game?

As I know you still have invested a lot of time into that question, this doesn´t mean the simple general settings for barbarians in the editor.

I think the real questions are:

1. What triggers the Barbarian Ships?
2. What triggers the Barbarian land units?

For question 1 this is an interesting thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/what-triggers-the-barbarian-ships.94519/#post-2027702
For question 2 there is also an interesting thread: edit: that link is no longer working.

Unfortunately, as far as I remember, for none of both questions a completly satisfying answer had been found.

 

[Takhisis]

How do you upgrade Barbarians in the standard Civ3 game?

The only way I've seen that this would happen would be with Steph's mountainous add-on from 10-15 years ago which just added more eras. If you use it you can also set it to reassign barbarians' slots to new units.

 

[timerover51]

In Theov's mod, he has separate barbarian foot and cavalry units, along with a separate naval unit. I will see if those can be upgraded. Given the variety of units in the mod, I should be able to come with some possibilities. This is using the standard editor and without using the Flintlock mod. I will report back.

 

[Takhisis]

In Theov's mod, he has separate barbarian foot and cavalry units

Does he have actual unit lines, though?

 

[timerover51]

Does he have actual unit lines, though?

No, he does not. I figure that I will have to improvise.