Chemistry...

[KrikkitTwo]

Biology, Physics, and Mathematics are all lead-in techs as well, but on top of that they provide great immediate benefits, making you want to research them right away.

What immediate benefits does Physics give? (Free G.Scientist for the first+Airships+see uranium)
Chemistry is better (+1 Workshop, Frigates+Privateers)

Physics only has one Good benefits and only for the first, Wheras Chemistry has 2 good benefits (a useful economic situation, and a useful set of units)



And I realize the gas laws are part of chemistry.. guess what physicists also have to learn about electrons, protons and neutrons... and Biologists do massive amounts of Chemistry.

 

[dragodon64]

I think chemistry in the game is more like explosives and stuff since it comes from gunpowder and allows those cannon-wielding ships. But it also applies to alloys coming from engineering and allowing better materials therefore workshop +1.

Personally, i would like to see the cannon come from chemistry, purely for gameplay reasons. The AI often gets riflemen before cannons whereas in RL, riflemen are from the mid 19th century and western cannons are from the late middle ages.

 

[Elandal]

Trying to create the techtree so that it reflects historical development to the letter is simply impossible. Obviously that's done to certain degree, with playability and thus balance being important constraints providing direction. Maybe some things end up odd, but if our biggest problem is Chemistry not providing good enough immediate benefits I guess cIV is close to perfect

Regarding firearms, whether on caravel, carrack, frigate, as siege engine, or as personal weapon of a soldier, I only see one real problem: there's need for gunpowder based siege engine at gunpowder, to bridge the gap of cat/treb and cannon. Historically arquebus followed siege cannons, evolving into musket in a century and half, so having musketeers before cannons is quite odd. This causes some gameplay problems as well.
In case of caravel and carrack I'll just count their combat strength that is higher than that of trireme as completely acceptable military development. They can't bombard cities anyway - that's possible from frigate onwards. But frigates come before cannons, even if after gunpowder.

So, what to do about Chemistry? Nothing really. Moving something from further in the techtree down to chemistry is unlikely to be balanced. The idea of grenadier at chemistry but with another prereq, like nationalism as was discussed before bts, sounds viable. Maybe some other things could be reorganized as well, but care would need to be taken so that Chemistry doesn't become too important either, nor another technology be stripped of reasons to research it.

 

[kniteowl]

well currently assuming Grenadiers come with Chemistry, I'd make Military Tradition a prereq of Chemistry because you can build Cuirassier with MT tech which is 12 str therefore can counter Grenadiers lol.

If there was a Gunpowder Siege unit that came before Cannon then I'd make it available with Military Science, but change Military Science in the tech tree so it available right after gunpowder and make Military science a prereq of Steel so you'd have to get this siege unit before cannons.

Hope I didn't confuse you lol.

 

[crabapple]

Chemistry is good at water based maps, the one that first get to Chemistry will rule the sea with Frigates and Pirateers

 

[skallben]

I think cannons need to be moved back to chemistry. In fact, I think the whole siege weapon - castle - gunpowder siege needs some minor changes. Gunpowder effected castles/walls earlier than in Civ but that also made revisions to the constructions of fortifications, make them more sloped/curved.

 

[jimbob27]

Seras is totally right, you could make Cannons out of Iron or another alloy other than Steel, but those other metals and alloys are so heavy that the cannon wouldn't have been mobile on land. What makes Steel such a great alloy is that it's incredibly hard for it's weight -- making it the perfect metal for land-based cannons.

I'm not sure how you can some to this conclusion, when everyone has been walking around with man-portable cannons (ie, muskets) for the last few 100 years.

 

[Cvntpumeler]

I'm not sure how you can some to this conclusion, when everyone has been walking around with man-portable cannons (ie, muskets) for the last few 100 years.

It's called physics jimbob. Obviously the ratio of the cannon barrell's thickness must be relative to the size and speed of the projectile fired out, or the cannon will destroy itself when fired. To make a viable cannon that can actually cause soime destruction, you need some pretty hardcore alloys to make the gun-barrel light enough to transport while still being able to shoot something very heavy very far. The strength of the barrell would have to scale from the weight of a musketball to the weight of a cannonball to shoot the same distance (also, cannons have way more range than muskets), which is many orders of magnitude heavier. Ever seen that mythbusters where they make a cannon out of wood?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The only problem with the tech tree in that period is the lack of a Gunpowder siege engine, Chemistry is fine, Steel is fine,
Military Science ... has a good position, although it needs more bonuses than Grenadiers.. make it less of a dead end tech [possibly bonuses to upgrading]

A Gunpowder Siege Engine should only be good for attacking cities so I'd say 6+50% v. cities (12% bombard) probablyrequire Engineering, cost ~90

 

[Elandal]

Indeed, the early siege cannons were cumbersome and not meant for use outside sieges. I'd just want them to be upgrade over both cats (so base strength 6 or higher) and trebs (thus city attack strength over 8) but with cannons (at strength 14) a clear upgrade for all purposes.

I've toyed with 6 +50% city values myself. Considering that as gunpowder era units they ignore walls unlike trebs, even at just 9 vs 8 base strength that combined with better bombard rate should make the difference large enough.

The question then comes to other requirements - namely Engineering in this case. My preference would be that this is the earliest gunpowder unit one can build, therefore if it has prerequisites, then so must musketmen have. I do understand the Engineering prereq, and it sounds solid thinking other than the problem vs. musketman then.

How would this affect Chemistry is another issue though. Having siege upgrade available from Gunpowder would lessen the need for Steel (and Cannons), hence would devalue Chemistry slightly. I see no problem in that myself - I find Chemistry valuable enough.

 

[Cvntpumeler]

A Gunpowder Siege Engine should only be good for attacking cities so I'd say 6+50% v. cities (12% bombard) probablyrequire Engineering, cost ~90

Wouldn't that just be a Treb? They would both be 8 Str vs cities, what would the point of building the gunpowder seige unit be? Maybe make it 7 str?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Wouldn't that just be a Treb? They would both be 8 Str vs cities, what would the point of building the gunpowder seige unit be? Maybe make it 7 str?

No it would be a Str 9, and it would ignore Castles+Walls

It would be better than both Trebs and Catapults for whatever you want to do with them. It would be much better v. castles+walls for tearing them down (12% v. 6% for Treb)

Str 7 might make it too good in the open field... which it shouldn't be.. that is for Steel.


The Engineering requrement wouldn't really be much (something one normally has before gunpowder quite a bit) I can seethe reason for wanting Muskets later, bu I don't think te tech tree is that subdivided... maybe one could give Muskets the requirement of Civil Service as well (another tech you get quite a bit before gunpowder unless rushing for it)

ad probably make it require iron OR copper

 

[jimbob27]

It's called physics jimbob. Obviously the ratio of the cannon barrell's thickness must be relative to the size and speed of the projectile fired out, or the cannon will destroy itself when fired. To make a viable cannon that can actually cause soime destruction, you need some pretty hardcore alloys to make the gun-barrel light enough to transport while still being able to shoot something very heavy very far. The strength of the barrell would have to scale from the weight of a musketball to the weight of a cannonball to shoot the same distance (also, cannons have way more range than muskets), which is many orders of magnitude heavier. Ever seen that mythbusters where they make a cannon out of wood?

There's also something called history. The chinese had siege cannons in the 1300's... approximately the same time they developed musket-type weapons. Seeing as civ is incredibly euro-centric... they've actually got things the wrong way round......... gunpowder siege weapons were in common usage all over europe...long before hand-guns became "standard" for armies to use.

I have no problems with the current cannon unit, but there definately should be an earlier type of cannon, that comes around the same time as gunpowder.

 

[kniteowl]

If anyone is interested I made a Mod with a New GunP Siege unit, I used the Cannon Graphics... MY Mod Skills Are EXTREMELY LIMITED. I wasn't able to mod it so Cats and Treb Would Upgrade to Arquebus (new GunP Siege unit which I will nickname Arq)

Some People may NOT agree with me how I moved the tech tree, I moved Grenadiers back to Chemistry but Grenadiers also require MT tech in order to be built, kind of like how Cavalry now require Rifling, I hope this doesn't lead people to pursue a Rifling Beeline. lol well in that case I mite as well make Rifling require MT.

Since I moved Grenadiers to Chemistry, MS (Military Science) was now a useless tech so I decided to put the Arq there and make MS require Engineering, I didn't want it that you could totally ignore engineering and be able to build Arqs before trebs lol.

Note: MS is available after Gunpowder now.

I made Steel Available with MS and Chemistry.... the problem here was people could immediately beeline to Steel for Cannons and totally ignore the Arq unit because cannons were only a couple techs away, so I removed the IW tech requirement and replaced it with MT (Again) lol so it gave the Arq more time to be used. Damn every Res Age unit requires MT now I might was well make Rifling require MT or maybe Nationalism... we'll see what happens first.

The Reason I removed the IW requirement was because of gameplay reasons, I assume most people beeline to Steel for Cannons and Cannons require Iron to be built, so I didn't see the reason why it needed a IW requirement, since most people should have the tech by that point in the game and even if they didn't they still couldn't build Cannons without Iron. Obviously the historical and realistic reason was you obviously required Iron to produce Steel lol.

 

[KMadCandy]

If there was a Gunpowder Siege unit that came before Cannon then I'd make it available with Military Science, but change Military Science in the tech tree so it available right after gunpowder and make Military science a prereq of Steel so you'd have to get this siege unit before cannons.

but but but ... i love that MilSci is a total deadend! i had a peaceful game where my only "war" was farming GGs with privateers. until that game i had assumed MilSci was needed for some tech further down the line. nope, no techs, only MAs, west point, and units. so, i shunned the science and tradition of military until well past railroads, i might have had ALine before i bothered. even left the workshop on my oil so that i could make more shiny privateers and not obsolete 'em. i so love chemistry now for privateers! then again i'm an oddball, i doubt most people's games are that peaceful *giggle*

 

[snipafist]

I, too, am increasingly annoyed at a lack of gunpowder siege weaponry until Steel. 19th century riflemen supported by 12th century siege weaponry is just flat-out ridiculous, and it's annoying having the riflemen waiting forever to assault a city because the trebuchets are extremely slow at lowering a castle's defenses, while the riflemen don't even "see" the castle defenses, meaning that each treb effectively reduces the "real" defense of a city against the riflemen by 1-2% per turn. Considering that bombards were far more commonly used all across the world than handheld gunpowder weaponry until the advent of muskets and, later, rifles, the placement of cannons is weird (I'm assuming that cannons are a catch-all for the basic bell-shaped gunpowder weapons that launched heavy balls at high velocity). I'm willing to throw some historical accuracy to the winds, but allowing cannons (obviously with decreased strength) to be recruited from Chemistry would be an excellent way to encourage the tech.

 

[kniteowl]

but but but ... i love that MilSci is a total deadend! i had a peaceful game where my only "war" was farming GGs with privateers. until that game i had assumed MilSci was needed for some tech further down the line. nope, no techs, only MAs, west point, and units. so, i shunned the science and tradition of military until well past railroads, i might have had ALine before i bothered. even left the workshop on my oil so that i could make more shiny privateers and not obsolete 'em. i so love chemistry now for privateers! then again i'm an oddball, i doubt most people's games are that peaceful *giggle*

Makes me wonder if Privateers are an exploit in an ALWAYS PEACE game. lol

I, too, am increasingly annoyed at a lack of gunpowder siege weaponry until Steel. 19th century riflemen supported by 12th century siege weaponry is just flat-out ridiculous, and it's annoying having the riflemen waiting forever to assault a city because the trebuchets are extremely slow at lowering a castle's defenses, while the riflemen don't even "see" the castle defenses, meaning that each treb effectively reduces the "real" defense of a city against the riflemen by 1-2% per turn. Considering that bombards were far more commonly used all across the world than handheld gunpowder weaponry until the advent of muskets and, later, rifles, the placement of cannons is weird (I'm assuming that cannons are a catch-all for the basic bell-shaped gunpowder weapons that launched heavy balls at high velocity). I'm willing to throw some historical accuracy to the winds, but allowing cannons (obviously with decreased strength) to be recruited from Chemistry would be an excellent way to encourage the tech.

Well I can always switch places with the Arq and the Grenadier on the tech tree and probably remove the Engineering preque for MS tech makes the tech tree less confusing... Grenadiers still require MT tech to be built though.

Make Chemistry, MT and IW the preques for Steel and make MS tech a dead end tech but people will ignore MS... I Kinda miss using Grenadiers when Rifles look more benefical and isn't a dead end tech.

 

[KMadCandy]

Makes me wonder if Privateers are an exploit in an ALWAYS PEACE game. lol

i didn't have "always peace" checked. i just made sure they never declared on me. i forgot, i did declare on one of them, but he'd asked for it of course *giggle*. a lot of my games are that way. seriously, you would not believe how in love i am with privateers. yarrrrrrrr!

 

[Elandal]

That's quite a lot of shuffling about. Should I grow too bothered about rifles marching with trebs I will just add bombard to gunpowder myself.

Also note that arquebus was handheld smoothbore cannon-lock weapon that evolved to musket - certainly not a precursor to cannon. Bombard might be more appropriate name.

 

[kniteowl]

That's quite a lot of shuffling about. Should I grow too bothered about rifles marching with trebs I will just add bombard to gunpowder myself.

Also note that arquebus was handheld smoothbore cannon-lock weapon that evolved to musket - certainly not a precursor to cannon. Bombard might be more appropriate name.

Thanks... I've never studied history so I have no knowledge of this stuff..,