China vs. Japan

[Hamlet]

Sure Japan invaded China and humiliated there women and people, in World War 2,

Humiliated? Try slaughtered en-masse.

You don't see the polish and French still pissed about the Germans?

Mainly because the Germans have done a lot to atone for Nazism. The Japanese, by comparison, have done slightly less than bugger-all.

 

[Birdjaguar]

HB is on the right track with this one in my mind. We have plenty of atrocities to go around and repeatedly bringing them up serves no useful purpose except to get everyone all worked up and to further the objectives of all the evil politicians. And their objectives do not include harmonious relations. If the chinese want to vilify the japanese, let them; if the japanese want to deny their actions, let them. What the japanese teach their kids is their business. Demanding changes to suit bogus international political correctness is silly and a waste of time. Making countries say their sorry in public is a pacifist's version of invading Iraq.

I think movies and books are the correct way to both sides to delude themselves about their pasts. The chinese should publish their versions and post them in japanese on the internet. They should both make movies on Nanking then submit them to Cannes for review. Leave the truth to the historians.

 

[HamaticBabylon]

I gape at your breath-taking ignorance of Asian history.

Humans have fought each other throughout history, regardless of similar cultures, etc.

Surely you know this.

I apologies if I have confused some of our "Asian" posters. I know a fare bit about the great wall and Mongolian expansion into china, Japan and south East Asia.... even Europe!

We don't see you forgiving and forgetting very often!...

I'm an optimist, and only look into the past to educate, not spread hatred among the people.

You probably do, but these nations are somewhat different from communist China, non?

Well for starters curt, it would help if you drop your Avatar, wearing a German uniform from WW2, and give it a descent brail!

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

Japan is not very ethnically Mongolian at all. China has lots of Mongolian influence, but I would hardly call it Mongol.

And HB, almost every week you post a thread blaming the white man for stuff that is happening TODAY.

I have read statements, essentially saying that you feel that deep down all white men are still racists.

Few posters on this board are as racially oriented as you. Thus your words seem hollow.

 

[WS78]

Both counties are from the same Mongolian family, I don't understand why they would fight each other. Sure Japan invaded China and humiliated there women and people, in World War 2, but that's life, you must learn to forgive and forget!

You don't see the polish and French still pissed about the Germans?

I was waiting three days for this subject to turn up, seeing I'm ethnic-Chinese and all.

I suggest to heed the information that Xen and Curt supply us at the moment.

Your first statement is as irrellevant as saying that Imperial England shouldn't have fought Napoleonic France.
I find your second statement extremely offending.
Chinese people, especially the older generation hold a long lasting grudge towards the Japanese. I don't blame them, tho I don't hate them as such.

I am fascinated with Japanese culture and would like to learn more about them. I know that the Japanese still feel the guilt and humiliation as Germany does, except that Japan had nuclear attacks.
China also has a history of abuse tho and it's citizens should not scream so loud about Japan's wrongs.

PS your last statement is very oblivious and you should ask a Pole what he thinks of Russia and a Dutchman about Germany. Saying that everythings peachy in Europe is just wishful thinking.

 

[Xen]

Both counties are from the same Mongolian family, I don't understand why they would fight each other. Sure Japan invaded China and humiliated there women and people, in World War 2, but that's life, you must learn to forgive and forget!

You don't see the polish and French still pissed about the Germans?

"Humiliated"? Humiliated?

they call it an atrocity for a reason, babylon, and so why dont we enlighten you to the facts of this matter- what occured durign the japanese occupation of china was amoungst osem fo the most heanouis actions in all human history; but your own overwealming bias of europeans blinds you tot he fact that everyoen else int he world can, and has doen just as much wrong as anyone else.
that said, I mean no offence to any modern Japanese nationals, or blood members; but it is our duty to force ourselves to remember these things, in the hope that we will never do such again.

WARNING: The content dispalyed is Violent, but, for better or for worse, they are real pictures of the nanjing atrocities- do not however, click if you are of the faint of heart, or squimish

Welcome to hell, folks- this is the Rape of Nanjing

 

[Birdjaguar]

I suggest to heed the information that Xen and Curt supply us at the moment.

And what savy advice did they offer up?

Chinese people, especially the older generation hold a long lasting grudge towards the Japanese. I don't blame them, tho I don't hate them as such.

I am fascinated with Japanese culture and would like to learn more about them. I know that the Japanese still feel the guilt and humiliation as Germany does, except that Japan had nuclear attacks.
China also has a history of abuse tho and it's citizens should not scream so loud about Japan's wrongs.

If your goal is better relations between china and japan, then the best way to achieve that is more contact between ordinary people and less government discussion. The more people know about one another the less apt they are to get hot and bothered by political rhetoric. If, however, you have a different goal, a different course should be chartered.

 

[Xen]

@birdjaguar- click my link above; the picturs provided are only a trivial amoutn of horror- an apology at least is deserving in this case. Its not just the government of China that feel shotlly over the issue, its the people; and IMO, rightlly so; if you want better relations, then Japan needs to start them off by offering an official, and, one woudl hope heart felt, aplogy for the crimes commited by them in WWII.

 

[Yom]

@birdjaguar- click my link above; the picturs provided are only a trivial amoutn of horror- an apology at least is deserving in this case. Its not just the government of China that feel shotlly over the issue, its the people; and IMO, rightlly so; if you want better relations, then Japan needs to start them off by offering an official, and, one woudl hope heart felt, aplogy for the crimes commited by them in WWII.

I've seen those pictures before, and they're not too bad, but I still think that youa ren't allowed to link to that type of graphic material. Why don't you just copy the text and paste it here or link to Wikipedia?

 

[WS78]

I agree with Xen, and hope that people think before they speak in matters of history.

I didn''t even mention Unit 731, maybe less atrocies in numbers, but equally horrific in essence.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

It is fairly much a storm in a green teacup that has brewed ominously under the heat of China flexing its muscles and Japan emerging from self imposed purgatory. The Red ChiComm government is hardly in a position to claim the moral high ground on atrocities, but it suits their current purpose to mobilise the forces of nationalism as Maoist shibboleths fade somewhat. The Japanese have themselves to blame, and have made a something of a habit of downplaying or avoiding many of their actions from the war.

 

[Uiler]

China and japan have had a long history of being enemys, even up until what, 60 years ago? in world war 2. i think china is angry about how japan is a more advanced and popular country than they are....
correct me if im wrong...

That's completely wrong. Until the Meiji Revolution which was around the mid-19th century there was no real history of enmity between China and Japan. The vast majority of ordinary Chinese didn't even know Japan existed until they invaded and prior to the rise of nationalism with the Meiji Revolution Japan had centuries old history of greatly admiring and respecting China. On the Chinese side at least there were absolutely no feelings of enmity to Japan until the Japanese invasion. Japan hardly registered in the consciousness of most Chinese so how could there be any hatred? The Mongolians and Manchurians had a higher profile in China than the Japanese. The vast majority of Chinese thought to foreigners was devoted to the barbarians on the northern borders due to the fact that historically that was where most of the danger came from. Any feelings of enmity that exist now are entirely the Japanese fault. You know I wonder if part of the reason for Japanese savegery against Chinese (which went above and beyond the needs for war eg. Unit 731 that performed experiments on live humans such as live vivisections, tests with Chinese prisoners to see the types of wounds various weapons make e.g land mines, grenades and experiments to see if a mother will save her own life or save the life of her child) was due to jealousy and a desire to gain attention.

 

[Xen]

I've seen those pictures before, and they're not too bad, but I still think that youa ren't allowed to link to that type of graphic material. Why don't you just copy the text and paste it here or link to Wikipedia?

to convinve hamaticbabaylon, actual pictures will be needed, but according to him, they are likelly to be a hoax perpetuated by the American goverment in order to put down the history, achievments, and spirit of sub-saharan africa, and to cover up our false moon landings.

point blank; images liek these are needed for people to get a feel for what actually happend at Nanjing.

 

[Birdjaguar]

@birdjaguar- click my link above; the picturs provided are only a trivial amoutn of horror- an apology at least is deserving in this case. Its not just the government of China that feel shotlly over the issue, its the people; and IMO, rightlly so; if you want better relations, then Japan needs to start them off by offering an official, and, one woudl hope heart felt, aplogy for the crimes commited by them in WWII.

I am very familiar with the horror of nanking. What people deserve is not the question. No one will get what they deserve for good or ill. There can be no individual payback or punishment at this late date. Did any of the nanking rapists die later in the war? Did they suffer?

In 2005 all we have are chinese politicians and japanese politicians trying to further some particular agenda that is not related to peaceful cooexistence. If the chinese government said "We forgive the japanese for their wartime actions." And then they encouraged the people to do the same, the situation would go away pretty quickly. The problem is that both sides want to keep the issue around for their own political purposes. All those who were present in nanking have lived with and found a way to deal with their pain. For them I think I would encourage meetings with their other nation counterparts and let them weep together.

There are lots of ways japan could speak to the war and all its terrible acts, an official appology is one. For some chinese that will be enough for others it will not. It's japan's business. China is their neighbor and they have to figure out how they want to be perceived. In 50 years it will be a non issue.

 

[Ramius75]

Well, as a Chinese i have very strong feelings about the atrocities created by the Japanese in WWII. unlike the Germany which issue sincerely and genuine apologies for its aotrocities, the japanese until now 60 years later did not. Why is that so ?? unrependent ?? To me yes.

Remember , those that do no remember the history are condemn to repeat it.

Until this day, the Japanese Gov although under a passive military doctrine still insisited on visiting the Yasukuni Shrine, where the war criminals are worship and remembered. How is it so ?? What will the allies feel if the German leaders decided to worship hitler's grave ?? Or do a Nazi salute ?

And right now, the Japanese History book are altered and the history twisted. So is this how the younger generation are taught ?? what will happened when they grow up ??

But why is it happening now ? I think it got to do with Japanese wanted to join the UN as a permanent member with veto power and also the conflict between the countries with resources grabbling, this is serious as Japan has infliriated both China and South Korea by trying to claim some disputed island.

My stand is although its good to forgive and forget, but until the other party issue an official apology and start condemning their past. The relationship cannot be continue or improve.

 

[Birdjaguar]

My stand is although its good to forgive and forget, but until the other party issue an official apology and start condemning their past. The relationship cannot be continue or improve.

Your position is clear: Unless Japan takes the first step things shouldn't get better. For you an appology or some other appropriate act is more important than good relations now and in the near future. The chinese government seems to feel the same way. Like I said, nobody really wants cooperation as a primary goal. They want something else first.

 

[De Lorimier]

It is fairly much a storm in a green teacup that has brewed ominously under the heat of China flexing its muscles and Japan emerging from self imposed purgatory. The Red ChiComm government is hardly in a position to claim the moral high ground on atrocities, but it suits their current purpose to mobilise the forces of nationalism as Maoist shibboleths fade somewhat. The Japanese have themselves to blame, and have made a something of a habit of downplaying or avoiding many of their actions from the war.

Haven't seen you in a while around here, good to see you!
Still crazy?

I agree with you on this.
We also can't forget that the Chinese government will not let Japan take the higher ground in the region regarding security. The fact that Japan is siding with the US on numerous issues is bound to be adressed by the chinese government. Using Japan's attitude regarding their past atrocities to arise tensions between the populations is a political move by a manipulative government. If only Japan would stop to minimize the significance of the atrocities commited by the empire of the sun...

 

[Yom]

Your position is clear: Unless Japan takes the first step things shouldn't get better. For you an appology or some other appropriate act is more important than good relations now and in the near future. The chinese government seems to feel the same way. Like I said, nobody really wants cooperation as a primary goal. They want something else first.

Is there anything wrong with wanting something else before cooperation?

 

[Jack the Ripper]

Its pretty sad china went from tianammen square to this in only 16 years. Something really horrible must be going on over there.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Is there anything wrong with wanting something else before cooperation?

There's nothing wrong with that, except that it often prevent getting to the next step. Wanting an appology is all about making the other party (person or country) admit something, its about "winning a point" at the beginning. It shouldn't have anything to do with achieving the goals of the moment (unless winning the pont is the goal). Remember, that by asking for a "small gesture" at the start, you can make sure that no other negotiations ever take place. Just ask for the gesture that is hardest for them to make and will cause the most pain. It all comes down to what you really want.