China vs. Japan

[luiz]

I'd almost feel sorry for China, except we're talking about the nation that banned Hearts of Iron on the ground that it represented Tibet as independant from China during WW II.

Once the Chinesse have cleaned their own house regarding historical revisionism maybe I'll take them seriously when they whine about Japanese revisionism (which is a problem, of course, but the point is, China is hardly in a position to criticize anybody on historical revisionism).

(For the general records : no, I'm not japanese).

Agreed. Japanese behabiour during WW2 was disgusting, but who is the chinese government to demand an apology?

When the CCP apologises for the occupation of Tibet, the Cultural Revolution, the Great Leap Forward, when they basically apologise for their existence, then I would expect Japan to apologise.

BTW, the chinese complaining of japansese school books beign biased is almost a joke...

Edit - It's very reasonable for a chinese individual who suffered in the hands of the japanese to expect an apology or even a compensation, but the chinese govt. should keep its mouth shut.
As for the protests refered to, they were organised by the government. In China the only protests allowed are against Japan or the USA(and the latter are decreasing).

 

[kronic]

When the CCP apologises for the occupation of Tibet, the Cultural Revolution, the Great Leap Forward, when they basically apologise for their existence, then I would expect Japan to apologise.

I fail to see why the Chinese should apologise first? Where's the link between Tibet and Japan? Where's the link between things that Mao did and Chinese rulers keep doing against their own people and Japan? How does that affect Japan at all? Just because you don't like the system (and neither do I) you shouldn't try to play down the crimes.

Germany tried to apologise to East European nations and Russia long before the East Block collapsed, long before their oppressive communist regimes faded away. And Russia is still until today not a prime example for democracy. It's rather quickly moving forward to become a new dictatorship, this time based on nationalism (though you could claim, that Soviet communism was nothing more than red nationalism). Should Germany not have apologised? Or should we've waited until the Polish and Russians admited that they didn't behave nice after 1945? Then, we would have no German apology until today...

Japan has a responsiblity towards the Chinese people. And that's not a matter of the system.

And while these protests are organized by the government, the Japanese should realize, that they don't apologise because the Chinese demand it, but because they have to accept their own criminal past.

 

[HamaticBabylon]

And HB, almost every week you post a thread blaming the white man for stuff that is happening TODAY.

I have read statements, essentially saying that you feel that deep down all white men are still racists.

Few posters on this board are as racially oriented as you. Thus your words seem hollow.

What i must off missed your post!

I don't post subjects about all white man being racists; it's just that they are quick to fall into that hole again once things become bad in society. I have to live with a British public down south, that when something goes wrong they blame it on immigrates and blacks! Just the other day, I was at a bus stop and these black teens come screaming round a bend; yelling as they ran past us. The old lady said, “Those black idiots must be up to no good!”. I was shocked, it turns out the young black lads were running to catch the bus…. but she did not see it that way!

 

[luiz]

I fail to see why the Chinese should apologise first? Where's the link between Tibet and Japan? Where's the link between things that Mao did and Chinese rulers keep doing against their own people and Japan? How does that affect Japan at all? Just because you don't like the system (and neither do I) you shouldn't try to play down the crimes.

Germany tried to apologise to East European nations and Russia long before the East Block collapsed, long before their oppressive communist regimes faded away. And Russia is still until today not a prime example for democracy. It's rather quickly moving forward to become a new dictatorship, this time based on nationalism (though you could claim, that Soviet communism was nothing more than red nationalism). Should Germany not have apologised? Or should we've waited until the Polish and Russians admited that they didn't behave nice after 1945? Then, we would have no German apology until today...

Japan has a responsiblity towards the Chinese people. And that's not a matter of the system.

And while these protests are organized by the government, the Japanese should realize, that they don't apologise because the Chinese demand it, but because they have to accept their own criminal past.

I don't see why anyone should apologise to a government that refuses to apologise. As I mentioned in my post, it's desirable that Japan would apologise and compensate the chinese individuals victimised. But the chinese government has no moral high ground to demand anything.

 

[WS78]

What i must off missed your post!

I don't post subjects about all white man being racists; it's just that they are quick to fall into that hole again once things become bad in society. I have to live with a British public down south, that when something goes wrong they blame it on immigrates and blacks! Just the other day, I was at a bus stop and these black teens come screaming round a bend; yelling as they ran past us. The old lady said, “Those black idiots must be up to no good!”. I was shocked, it turns out the young black lads were running to catch the bus…. but she did not see it that way!

Realise that when things go wrong blame it on the foreigners. Look up Belgian Congo, China (communist/nationalist revolution), India, Indonesia, Rwanda and more recently Darfur. White men are not the only racists.

 

[Uiler]

I don't see why anyone should apologise to a government that refuses to apologise. As I mentioned in my post, it's desirable that Japan would apologise and compensate the chinese individuals victimised. But the chinese government has no moral high ground to demand anything.

People keep on going on about the Chinese government, but isn't Japan supposed to be a liberal freedom-loving democracy, the poster-child of Asia according to the US? Surely a liberal freedom-loving democracy, should behave better than an oppressive dictatorship? So why on the matter of the past does Japan behave no better if not worse than an oppressive evil dictatorship? And surely the US as the leader of the Free World, whose tenants are Truth, Justice and the American Way should be pressing Japan to apologise. When I was young my mother refused to let me fight with my younger brother saying that as an older sibling, even if my younger brother was misbehaving I have a responsibility to behave better than he was and to set an example for him to follow. As I was older I should have more self-restraint and more maturity than him. Since we liberal democracies pride ourselves as "better" than evil dictatorships surely we should not stoop to their standards but rise above them.

As it is the protests in China have great support amongst the Chinese people. They may be *allowed* by the government for their own ends, but it is not astroturfing in any way. Ask any Chinese person and they will tell you that their feelings to Japan are the same as those in the protests (though perhaps not with so much violence). I *am* Chinese and I can tell you that even amongst overseas Chinese there is much sympathy for the sentiments of the protestors. The protests show the true wishes of the Chinese people. Unlike previous times, this time it truly is the Chinese people who are calling for Japan to apologise. The protests are the true voices of the people. BTW isn't that what people like you always wanted? The voices of the people? This is the voice of the people. No-one ever said that the voices of the people were nice e.g. see the ME where the voices of the people seem to be going for Islamic fundamentalism.

Also no-one is saying that Japan should apologise to the Chinese government but to the Chinese *people*. As it is the Japanese behaviour to its victims is disgusting. Take for example the comfort women. When they ask for compensation or even an apology the Japanese government try to stmy them at every turn. Shrines like the Yakasuni Shrine have a museum glorifying Japan's invasion of Asia and release literature saying that Japan only invaded Asia to help Asia and its invasion was supported by Asians. That is insulting the memories of ALL victims of Japanese aggression.

 

[Uiler]

People keep on saying the Chinese government should stop the protests, but how? What do you want them to do? Censor the web more? "Disappear" the ring leaders? Raid universities? Should they shoot them? Maybe they should crush them with tanks. Would this make you happy because the Chinese government could easily make the protests disappear, but only using the same tactics they use to make pro-democracy and anti-government protests disappear. Fear and brutality. If you seriously think that the Chinese government will use nice methods which don't involve fear and brutality to stop the protests you are seriously naive and don't understand the Chinese government at all.

Surely these protests should make you happy. They are the voices of the people and isn't this what you want? To see Chinese on the street expressing their displeasure? Or is that you only want this when it suits your own purpose which is to oppose the Chinese government. In which case you decry the brutal tactics they use, but when the protests don't suit your purpose you want the Chinese government to send in the tanks, to send the ring leaders (who are mostly university students) to "re-education". Admit it you don't freedom for the Chinese people when it doesn't suit you. If the message of the "people" doesn't suit you you want the government to send in the tanks. How hypocritical is that?

 

[Uiler]

Another issue is that the Chinese are far away from the only victims of the Japanese. Many Asian countries were victims eg. Korea and Taiwan. Why doesn't Japan apologise to these countries? There was no Great Leap Forward in Korea. There was never a Mao Zedong in Korea. So why doesn't Japan apologise to Korea? In fact Taiwan and Korea are both democracies aren't they? So none of the excuses Japanese apologists use for China apply at all to Korea. Yet the Japanese treat Korea exactly the same way they treat China. In fact in Korea there is equal anger over the textbooks as they whitewash over Japanese behaviour in Korea as well. In fact when Japan announced it was going to go for a permanent seat on the UN security council it was S. Korea who objected first, not China. It was S. Korea's government that said that Japan would get a permanent seat over S. Korea's dead cold body while China was still saying "no comment".

The simple fact of the matter is, the Japanese refusal to apologise has absolutely nothing to do with Chinese government, Mao Zedong or anything like that. Otherwise why does it treat S. Korea, another liberal democracy with no history of domestic massacres in the millions and a US military alliance exactly the same way it treats China. It is pretty obvious that the reason why Japan refuses to acknowledge the past is something that lies purely with the Japanese alone and can not be blamed on the Chinese in any way. Hell, Japan has been in a military alliance with the US and Korea for decades and it still treats S. Korea exactly the same way it treats China, the evil Communist dictatorship. How do the Japanese apologists explain that?

 

[Uiler]

OK. Note, CurtSibling believes that if you live in a poor country where millions die everyyear of starvation and disease and crime and the average lifespand is shorter than in Western countries and they have a history of massacres it is not a crime against humanity if an evil dictator (or other group) kills millions. And the victims have no right to ask for an apology or for said dictator to be punished. Hey your life is cheap anyway. So the evil dictator adds a few tens of million to the toll. You were likely to die of disease and starvation anyway. So, I guess it means your life only has value if you come from a liberal democracy with good health service and police force. Hey, so why don't we release Saddam anyway? I mean really those Shi'ites and Kurds were poor anyway. Their lifespan wasn't that great. It's likely they'd be offed by disease or crime or hunger. What's killing an extra million or so? Hey, so why on earth was the Holocaust so bad. Why should the German have to apologise to the Jews. Come on the Jews have prosecuted for centuries. As CurtSibling says they have no right to demand an apology as they have experienced it so many times it doesn't matter.

There is no argument here, as I did not deny the atrocities of Imperial Japan.

I merely mused that China is no stranger to carrying similar outrages, and their whines do not ring true.

So you are barking up the wrong tree, and are in fact in an entirely different forest.

The bottom line is that China is exterting their overwhelming muscle on a long-defeated foe...

.

 

[wit>trope]

There might be some racialism that plays into all of this. Some Japanese people think that the Japanese are a superior race. I don't mean to judge them for that; I'm just pointing that out as a factor.

 

[Evie]

...you do know you can edit your posts, right?

As for the rest, my point is not Japan should not apologize (I personally don't give a damn wether or not they do ; apologies won't ease any suffering, won't bring the dead back to life, and will likely only result in political instability in Japan, and cries of hypocrisy outside Japan).

It's that none of the nation in East Asia have any ground to stand on when it comes to historical revisionism. I've met South Koreans who had been persuaded by their schoolbook that everything the western imperial powers ever did to them was somehow the work of Japan ; China is banning games because they depict an independant Tibet, etc. And they're not alone ; French history book are in general VERY silent on collaborators and laud the resistance ; Québec history books generally remain very silence on the corruption and backstabbing that went on in the New France government to instead laud the "colonization heroes" like Frontenac, etc.

Nearly all nations try to revisionize their own history in the schoolbooks. It's just Japan is more blatant at it than most, and they revisionize on topics that are more touchy to severan countries.

(Edit : This was obviously in answer to Uiler, not you, Cierdan. While your post is not entirely accurate - it gives a "nazi" feel to the thing which is not really appropriate - Cierdan, it does touch on an important issue, namely the Japanese disdain for other cultures and people).

 

[rilnator]

Back in the 30s Japan, a much more powerful nation bullied the Chinese. Now however the shoe is on the other foot and the Chinese people know it.

IMO I think that is where all the anger is coming from. When they weren't indusrialised or economically strong the Japanese took advantage of this, pillaging their country. I don't know if the Chinese want revenge, but now they can express themselves and let the Japanese know how they feel.

My brother lived in Japan for a couple of years and the way they tell the story the Japanese were forced into the war because of harsh American sanctions. Disgraceful! The Japanese believe they are a superior race and have never done wrong. Theres no way they will ever learn otherwise if there history books aren't a little more honest.

 

[CurtSibling]

OK. Note, CurtSibling believes that if you live in a poor country where millions die everyyear of starvation and disease and crime and the average lifespand is shorter than in Western countries and they have a history of massacres it is not a crime against humanity if an evil dictator (or other group) kills millions. And the victims have no right to ask for an apology or for said dictator to be punished. Hey your life is cheap anyway. So the evil dictator adds a few tens of million to the toll. You were likely to die of disease and starvation anyway. So, I guess it means your life only has value if you come from a liberal democracy with good health service and police force. Hey, so why don't we release Saddam anyway? I mean really those Shi'ites and Kurds were poor anyway. Their lifespan wasn't that great. It's likely they'd be offed by disease or crime or hunger. What's killing an extra million or so? Hey, so why on earth was the Holocaust so bad. Why should the German have to apologise to the Jews. Come on the Jews have prosecuted for centuries. As CurtSibling says they have no right to demand an apology as they have experienced it so many times it doesn't matter.

I can see you have a bad case of 'post-blindness.'

You prefer to run off in some delirious direction, stammering total lies and plainly distorted ideas of what I said.

Go back and read my postings, and show me where I said that Japan should not apologise.

Until you display the ability do that, I will regard you as a mere comedy distraction.

.

 

[Uiler]

OK, if you want:

"To repeat myself - The point was this:
The Chinese should stop whining about apologies when their leaders killed far
more of their own people than any foreigners did in WW2.."

All your posts are on the same line - The Chinese people does not deserve any apology from the Japanese because the Communists killed lots of Chinese too. I don't see the logic of that, but that's what all your posts say.

I can see you have a bad case of 'post-blindness.'

You prefer to run off in some delirious direction, stammering total lies and plainly distorted ideas of what I said.

Go back and read my postings, and show me where I said that Japan should not apologise.

Until you display the ability do that, I will regard you as a mere comedy distraction.

.

 

[CurtSibling]

I never said the people do not deserve an apology, but that the attitude of the ChiCom leaders is disgusting.

Can you digest the simple logic here?

The commies killed far more than the Japanese.
And the commies were not in power during WW2.

So were does that leave you?

 

[Uiler]

I never said the people do not deserve an apology, but that the attitude of the ChiCom leaders is disgusting.

Can you digest the simple logic here?

The commies killed far more than the Japanese.
And the commies were not in power during WW2.

So were does that leave you?

No, you said, "To repeat myself - The point was this:
The Chinese should stop whining about apologies when their leaders killed far
more of their own people than any foreigners did in WW2.."

Your statement clearly refers to the Chinese *people* not deserving an apology. If you meant the government you would have said, the "The Chinese government should stop whining...when *they* killed more of their own people..." When you say "their leaders" you clearly refer to the Chinese people. Stop trying to backtrack.

 

[CurtSibling]

No, you said, "To repeat myself - The point was this:
The Chinese should stop whining about apologies when their leaders killed far
more of their own people than any foreigners did in WW2.."

Your statement clearly refers to the Chinese *people* not deserving an apology. If you meant the government you would have said, the "The Chinese government should stop whining...when *they* killed more of their own people..." When you say "their leaders" you clearly refer to the Chinese people. Stop trying to backtrack.

It only 'clearly states' what you think it does in your mind's eye, it seems.

And for your information - I don't back track.
Tell me what has changed in my statement?

It is you who are incapable of processing typed words on a screen.
You have came up with a distorted view of what I stated:
That the Chinese communists have little room to moan about atrocity.

If you lack the ability to understand this, there is no use in you getting worked up.

Whatever you are trying to achieve here is going nowhere.

 

[Uiler]

No I am not interpreting your statement wrongly. I am interpreting it exactly the way it is written. As I said the statement you made *clearly* refers to the Chinese people.

"The Chinese should stop whining about apologies when their leaders killed far
more of their own people than any foreigners did in WW2.."

This statement clearly refers to the Chinese people who should stop whinging about an apology because *their leaders* (the exact phrase you used) killed lots of Chinese. As I said if you meant the Communist party you would not have worded the statement that way.

Of course if you want to retract and reword your statement you are more than welcome.

It only 'clearly states' what you think it does in your mind's eye, it seems.

And for your information - I don't back track.
Tell me what has changed in my statement?

It is you who are incapable of processing typed words on a screen.
You have came up with a distorted view of what I stated:
That the Chinese communists have little room to moan about atrocity.

If you lack the ability to understand this, there is no use in you getting worked up.

Whatever you are trying to achieve here is going nowhere.

 

[Jeff Yu]

You prefer to run off in some delirious direction, stammering total lies and plainly distorted ideas of what I said.

As CurtSibling says they have no right to demand an apology as they have experienced it so many times it doesn't matter.

China has some cheek to whine about killing on a mass scale.

The Chinese should stop whining about apologies when their leaders killed far

Calling you on your own statements is telling lies and distorting ideas now?

A lot of people find it strange that Chinese people are still angry at Japanese. What they don't realize is the extent to which history is distorted in modern Japan. For example, Yasukuni Shrine's exhibits have this to say about the Nanjing Massacre.

The Chinese were soundly defeated, suffering heavy casualties. Inside the city, residents were once again able to live their lives in peace.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4449005.stm

How are the people supposed to "forgive and forget" when the Japanese are telling of the their soldier's heroic exploits in liberating Asia from imperialisma nd bringing peace and justice to Asia? I have family from both mainland China, and Hong Kong who don't have any great love for the Japanese, so don't assume it's just a communist thing.

Take a look at this BBC article about the anti-Japanese protests in Hong Kong as well, independent of the communists. Hong Kong Chinese have just as much to be angry about, with 10,000 women raped during the occupation and the reduction of the island's population from 1.6 million to 600,000.

Many have compared the Japanese to the Germans in WW2, and I find the comparison apt. While 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust, the Japanese killed 20 million or more Chinese and some 100,000 million Chinese became refugees as a result of the war. The suffering inflicted on the Chinese alone accounts for several Holocoasts. If your grandmother was one of the women raped, or your grandfather was one of the men experimented upon with anthrax, and the individuals responsible either deny the incidents, of acknowledge and then refuse to apologize for them, wouldn't you be pissed?

Regarding the Jewish Holocaust, one of the memorable lessons associated with it is "Never again." Does that mean never again for anybody, or never again for jjust the Jews? I'm finding a very disturbing attitude by certain posters on this board. While the extremists in Japan are busily covering up and distorting their history, the very Chinese victims themselves are being told that they have no right to ask for an apology, and have no right to be angry for the injustices commited against them. In your rush to trot out your anti-communist idealogy, you make the same mistakes that they do: holding political idealogy more important than the rights of the actual people.

The communist may not deserve an apology and it certainly has not asked for one. The people who suffered certainly do deserve one, and those already dead deserve far more respect than to have their brutal killers honored in yearly shrine visits. The fact that any textbooks at all are being distorted and that those old ladies still alive are being refused compensation serves as a continued insult to the memories of those who lived throughout this eastern version of the Holocaust. It's a bitter pill that the people of China have to swallow, among many other ones, including yes, the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, Tiananment Square, etc, which themselves are only the latest in a few centuries of turmoil.

But does that mean they don't have the right to an apology? No, of course not. This isn't some sort of oppression olympics to see which nation has the biggest body count, nor is it because we're all brainwashed communist mouthpieces. it's about justice. Regardless of the current government of China, it's something that the people of Asia deserve. Those victims deserve their apologies regardless of political atmosphere, and until the truth is embraced, the leaders of Japan simply lack the moral responsibility to hold any kind of leadership position in Asia or in the UN.

 

[Evie]

If embracing the truth in schoolbooks is necessary to have the moral responsibility to hold any kind of leadership position, then nobody should have leadership positions.

It's not that Japan is unique in distorting history for their schoolbook ; it's that they're more blatant about it than most, and they do it over a topic that most of the morally righteous crowd find particularly interesting to harp on about, because they can go at length explaining the atrocities to shock people into agreeing.

I don't know where people get the delusions that there's a moral high ground to be had for them when it comes to editing history.