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[BTS] Chinese UHV (struggling vs the Mongols)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rhye's and Fall of Civilization' started by MAvL, Mar 19, 2020.

  1. MAvL

    MAvL Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    Hi, I'm struggling with the Chinese UHV (monarque, RFC version shipped with the base Steam BTS civ4)

    Specifically the second condition, how to resist mongols?

    I describe my current playthrough later in this post, for you to tell me where I messed up but I also have these quick questions (quick to ask anyway):
    1. Does letting a city flip to Mongols count as losing a city to mongols (UHV cond)?
    2. Assuming Mongols attack you anyway and considering that half Beijing's tiles are turned 95% Mongolian, will your troops defect if you don't built any city in Mongolia or let it flip peacefully?
    3. Does Culture play any role in resisting rising nations? Or only stability?
    4. Does building a palace in a town prevent it from flipping and against defection? (I tested a mock game settling my capital in Vietnam as Chinese and it didn't flip, but I can't be sure it worked, it could just be higher stability due to much later and slower expansion; and it also doe snot tell about defection).
    5. At which stability level, if any, can you hope to hold on a Mongolian town about 6 tiles from Beijing? I was shaky, which can't be good, but is stable enough?
    6. Do mercenaries defect? I assume they don't and might be an expensive but workable solution. Btw I find it highy moronic that units trained in 100% Chinese territory and just freshly arrived in Mongolia suddenly decide to betray you.
    7. Where don't unit defect? I noticed I can't have more than one unit in the city tile. Is it broader than that? Is it possible to go around and fight outside the town without having overwhelmingly more traitors than loyalist before even taking actual Mongols into account?
    8. Does golden Age help stability?
    9. what are the effect, if any, of Hereditary rule and slavery on stability? (over despotism and barbarism respectively)


    My current playthrough is unfolding as follows (if you haven't played it yet and want to, spoilers ahead):
    The first UHV Condition is 2 Taoist Pagodas and 2 confucian Academies. It's tight but doable. And it defines your early game.

    I got a solid 4 cities core early and rushed mathematics. (spoilers are used to provide lenghty, skippable details).
    Spoiler :

    one city in Korea one in between and one South on the shore line. I settled on the Korean dyes to contest Japan culturally (and be able to move ships more easily than settling East of Dye). I know Seoul eventually pop there, but the site is too good to wait.


    Then take a small detour by masonery to build Great Lighthouse before rushing calendar, while developping the core (improvements, granaries, libraries) while slowly adding more cities, to have eventually 8.
    Spoiler :

    two Souther, one NorthEast on the Shore line and one North North West, technically in Mongolia I guess, but still close to Beijing.


    Shortly after getting calendar, I bulbed alphabet, and got really good trades

    Spoiler :
    mysticism, priesthood, monotheism and iron working while only having to research polytheism (and bronze working obv, but I had it for a long time).

    I also made the mistake to only send one spy West and to send it through occuppied lands: he died from plague barely halfway into Indian territory. I'm probably missing out 10-30 gold per turns that I would haved gotten trading with Greece and Rome (and it's also a good thing to make help these two guys to slow down other rising powers).



    Before going to music, I took a detour through construction, settled on the Vietnamese stone and managed to get the Great Wall up before even the first invasions from Tibet and Mongolia.

    Spoiler :
    I also build (wipped) two confucian missionaries, a scout and a couple science points from the vietnamese town before they turn Khmer, so, overall it looks worth.


    By year 500 or so, I have my 8 cities and the following 500 years are spent researching music, and building temples and missionaries. In year 800 or so, Japan makes a pathetic attempt to invade me, but still is very annoying on the water. I complete the first UHVC comfortably in 950 and snatch top score from Indian at around the same time.

    Spoiler :

    I also took the time to build the Masoleum in Korea, for culture's sake, and leaning tower in the Confucian holy site, to accelerate the production of 2 prophet. I end up with one useless extra great Prophet in 1150 or so.
    In hindsight I might try to plan a golden age for when the Mongols arrive.



    Then, and I think this is where lies my first big mistake, I spend a good 10-15 turns building up an invasion fleet and end up capturing Kyoto. My expansion stability goes slightly up, but I lose a full star in eco (I might already have lost it I don't remember but war certainly not helps). Would have it been better for stability to simply burn Kyoto down if I no longer want Japan to be a worry? And even better over all to not build 15-25 units and sign a white truce and developp eco instead?

    In 1190 comes Ghengis Khan. My second UHVC is don't lose a city to barbs or Mongols until 1250.

    My town in Mongolia want to flip. I refused because it was too good and because I had the infrastructure to compfortably support a war (barracks in all of my 8 productive, 12+ pop, 10+hammer cities, good road network).

    I'm one whole era behind as far as military is concerned, with Cho ko Nu soon to be unlocked, but I figured Mongols would be horsemen and as Chinese I can spam spear very cheaply. Little did I know for every Keshik, they have two crossbowmen.

    Oh, and don't even try to have more than a single unit defending the City. It will turn Mongol. Actually even 1 unit in the bfc is risky.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  2. MAvL

    MAvL Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    So I reloaded in 800 or so to try a different approach and I can answer some of my questions :

    1. No, it does not count as losing a city to Mongols. I guess that's what I'll have to do.
    2. dunno
    3. dunno, but I'd say only stability. Culture has some minor influence over stability, but the time scales involved makes it negligible for hte issue at stake
    4. haven't tried but moving palace impact stability negatively. I could try a summer palace but the timing would be quite tight.
    5. Stable is not enough
    6. Yes they do. A huge oversight if you want my opinion.
    7. They defect even outside of BFC. I'd say any tile with the slightest Mongol culture is dangerous, which means in an area a quite bigger than modern mongolia
    8. Yes but nowhere near enough. Anarchy during golden age does lower your stability, but it seems you recover faster.
    9. Minor. Recent anarchy is bad though.

    So what I'll do I guess is let the city flip and reconquer it if I can, or at least befriend Ghengis Khan. (If I had to restart, I would not found this city)
     
  3. Ivan Preuss

    Ivan Preuss Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2018
    Messages:
    33
    Gender:
    Male
    Do you realize that you can create a ****-ton of workers, leave them on cities that want to flip and they'll defect instead of your troops? It works really well for the most part.
     
    MAvL likes this.

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