Chinese UU not very useful

[phungus420]

Tech requirement is much higher than catapult's. Although cause collateral damage, it cannot bomb a city. So you still need catapult.

You're on crack. The Chinese UU is the second best unit in the game next to the Preatorian. They are axe-Longbow-Catapult units combined. If you think they suck, you need to learn how to wage war in CIV.

 

[ÆnigmÆffect]

I'm not sure if the thread starter was trolling, but if he's not, here's why the two bonus traits for this crossbowman replacement is great:

1 extra first strike is awesome in dishing out an extra early set of damage, with the possibility of it winning the battle without damage (I find damaged units pretty useless most of the time).

The collateral damage is huge in attacking. Even if the unit dies, it makes a large portion of the stack (read: defenders in the city you're trying to take) a lot weaker. So the rest of your units should be able to finish the city off a LOT more easily (best to send in another Cho-ko-nu, in case it dies again. This way, the NEXT unit will surely have a huge advantage).

The main thing is that with the Cho-ko-nu, you'd really want to start wars at this time. It's a very strong unit for a few techs' time, and it has no visible weaknesses (I don't recall any units without promotions that have built in +% against archery, except other UUs).

 

[秦始皇]

Chinese UU is tough ,so it is difficult to stroken down .

 

[OG_Pieps]

The Cho Ko Nu is really quite good when you know how to use it. But the fact, that rifleman are availalbe soon makes them less usefull.

 

[myhairlosing]

Not only the UU, Qin is probably one of the top 3 leaders overall.

The combination of financial (money) and industrial (wonders) traits + starting with mining (can go bronze working then chop forest for early rush) + a great UU means a strong player to deal with. If starts near stone/marble it can be invincible.

 

[vanharjc]

I love Chinas UU, I am usually able to get it pretty early, as long as I can build the oracle and have one or two cities with good production (lots of hills). I like to start off building a worker and hook up any resource that uses farms or mines first. Then I build warriors until size 3 or 4 and build a settler, followed by stonehenge and the oracle.
My research order usually goes like this:
The Wheel
Bronze Working
Mysticism
Polytheism
Priesthood
Pottery (I want all these techs done before the oracle is complete, usually use worker chop to make sure I get it.
Take metal casting as free tech, then go for machinery, or you can wait till you have metal casting to build the oracle and take machinery as the free tech.

Usually if I have a decent start location I can be producing 2 cho ko nu every 3 turns in 2 or 3 cities. Most people will still be using archers on defense for quite a while and with 50% to melee you don't have to worry much about axemen or swordsman. After I get machinery, I grab meditation, masonry and monotheism and use great prophet to get theology (If I'm lucky and have pyramids as well, change civics to police state and theocracy and pump out cho ko nu)

 

[yccnorth]

Cho Ko Nu is a perfect melee killer in its age. It can come out of battle against swordsman and axeman unscratched thanks to its melee bonus. It's not sloutch against other arch and mount units as well. Its only glaring weakness(ie, no advantage) is against arch rider. Hence the need of pikeman. I agree with what previous poster said, China UU is the reason you should go to war.

P.S. Despite everything I read on this forum, I still found myself fighting the CIV3 habits. For example, I still don't like to build pikemen. I have to purposely force myself to do so. Old habits die hard, but I'm learning and adapting.

 

[Arkalius]

Yeah I played china in my current game for the cho-ko-nu.... though unfortunately I fought a war and won just as I was starting to build them so they didn't end up being that much use. I didn't really even need their advantage to win at any rate, I was owning spain with my swordsman and horse archers already.

 

[KAuss]

Cho Ko Nu is a perfect melee killer in its age. It can come out of battle against swordsman and axeman unscratched thanks to its melee bonus. It's not sloutch against other arch and mount units as well. Its only glaring weakness(ie, no advantage) is against arch rider. Hence the need of pikeman. I agree with what previous poster said, China UU is the reason you should go to war.

P.S. Despite everything I read on this forum, I still found myself fighting the CIV3 habits. For example, I still don't like to build pikemen. I have to purposely force myself to do so. Old habits die hard, but I'm learning and adapting.

How can you not build pikes if you play Civ3? They were the ultimate city defense... Even if you're an offensive player one still needs a few of these pikes to sit in garrison for when the ish hits the fan...

Seroiusly, for those that say the Roman UU is probably the best UU in the game, how do the fair against the Chinese UU? Despite the fact that the Roman UU is cheaper and early in tech tree... Both need iron though... As I've stated the Chinese UU would probably edge out given time, but the Roman UU is a straight rush unit...

 

[Gungalley]

If there's no war at the time that Cho-Ko-Nu comes out START ONE!

Again, you could discover feudalism, guilds, and gunpowder if you wait another 40-50 turns. But why squander a good opportunity? CKNs and Catapults will allow you to make a powerful impact from the start, and you can research feudalism, guilds, and gunpowder as you wage war.

The problem is that people are used to Civ 3, where you could fight a war by producing a few of the best unit in a few cities, while you focus on wonders in other cities. In Civ 4, you need to FOCUS when you do a war: get all your cities pumping out units the second you discover that key tech!

And if you have a UU, you need to learn when and how to beeline for the technology that unlocks it. Otherwise you won't have much of an advantage at all.

Wouldn't you lose out in a tech race then?

 

[rhythmofvision]

I suspect some of you guys haven't really used the Chinese UU. Looks great on paper, but they are not that great. The problem stems from the fact you need machinery. This is a new era technology which takes a long time to research! The time sacrificed can stunt growth in other areas of your game. Since they are most useful in early game (only strength 6), you need to "beeline" to get it and at higher difficulty, its hard to use Oracle to jump into machinery as you also need iron casting as a pre req. It's a lot of planning and sacrifice to get this unit. Not to mention machinery is but a couple steps from guilds and the much better attacking Knights.

So even after you get them, with their 1 movement, it takes a long time to get them into the front lines. And to use their collateral damage ability, they must attack stacks (cities), which vs. AI is going to be archer and longbowmen, hence no 50% melee bonus. Also being crossbowmen, they don't get the "offensive" set of experience modifiers (recalling from memory). They end up being used as glorified catapults on city attacks. At least catapults get the city raider bonuses.

So in conclusion, due to tech costs and lack of strength for a 3rd era unit, I agree with the original poster that "Chinese UU not very useful." If you want to wage war in the early era, stick with the Romans and the nearly unstoppable Praetorians. Maybe they are better utilized in multiplayer games which I have no experience with.

Lastly, I play on Monarch where technology is equal and wonders are not a given.

 

[Heroes]

Wouldn't you lose out in a tech race then?

If you can win a war, you get more land and more population to generate more beakers in the long run, not to mention you could extort some techs. This is always true in civ 3, and I don't think it could be wrong in civ 4.

 

[rhythmofvision]

I just thought of a scenario where they could be useful. Mostly in multiplayer games where you, as the Chinese, are getting attacked. Have them defend cities and use them as counter attack units against stacks seigeing your cities. Unless they bring bowmen with their stacks, they should do some good damage. I believe this is the intent of this UU, as Chinese is not a domination civ.

Too bad against AI, these situations rarely exist but then again, I tend towards domination so it could just be me.

 

[Zurai]

The problems people have with both the Samurai and the Chu-ko-nu is that they simply don't understand first strike. First strike is a MASSIVE advantage. 2 first strikes is enough to defeat a wounded unit before it even has the chance to hurt you back - essentially making your unit invincible.

Here's a suggestion: Get a Chu-ko-nu up to Drill IV, then send it against a Musketman. Watch the Chu-ko-nu win because it hit the Musketman at least five times and as many as seven times before the Musketman even got the chance to roll against the CKN.

First strike is absolutely brutal, and units with two first strikes naturally are incredibly strong.

 

[rhythmofvision]

I don't think anyone is arguing that 2 first strike, collateral damage, +50% melee is NOT strong. What is being argued is the contextual nature of this particular UU pitted vs. technology and actual game conditions.

The Chinese UU is stuck between the effectiveness of early unit swordsman/catapults and power/mobility of knights. It's too late to use them for early era domination and too early and too slow before knights appear.

 

[Heroes]

I don't think anyone is arguing that 2 first strike, collateral damage, +50% melee is NOT strong. What is being argued is the contextual nature of this particular UU pitted vs. technology and actual game conditions.

The Chinese UU is stuck between the effectiveness of early unit swordsman/catapults and power/mobility of knights. It's too late to use them for early era domination and too early and too slow before knights appear.

No, knight is not that close, since feudalism and guilds are quite expensive techs. And, movement 1 is not a problem, you need to wait for cats anyway. Instead of let cats suicide, you can now keep cats and send Cho-Ko-Nu to attack after city defense becomes zero. In the long run you save a lot of hammers.

 

[Rustypipe]

Pretty well what has said by everyone kinds of sums it up. The CHK is EXTREAMLY strong on medium to lower difficulty settings as its easily obtained fairly early on, but once you start getting up in the higher difficulty settings like Diety, Immortal and such the comp almost always has a tech lead on you, making the unit absolete by the time you get it in mass production and on the war lines as the comp will probably have knights or be a few turns away. All though the unit is extreamly strong on harder diff settings its hard to beat the comp to machinery.

 

[abbamouse]

I'm generally unimpressed by the UUs. They give every civ a minor advantage at some point or in some situations. I wish each civ had a major advantage in different times or situations. The CKN is fine, but it's no Rider. The Jaguar Warrior isn't as nice as the Civ III version and so forth... I don't completely understand why, but each civ seems less distinct than in Civ III, even though there should be more things (different AI personalities) that make them more distinct.

I'd like to see them power up the units a bit more (I know, I know... I can do it myself in a mod if I feel like play-balancing, but I'm working on a realistic religions mod instead). The only unit that's not a bit underpowered is the Praetorian. The others are just a bit better than their conventional counterparts, so I don't fear them.

 

[Heroes]

Pretty well what has said by everyone kinds of sums it up. The CHK is EXTREAMLY strong on medium to lower difficulty settings as its easily obtained fairly early on, but once you start getting up in the higher difficulty settings like Diety, Immortal and such the comp almost always has a tech lead on you, making the unit absolete by the time you get it in mass production and on the war lines as the comp will probably have knights or be a few turns away. All though the unit is extreamly strong on harder diff settings its hard to beat the comp to machinery.

Well, every civ meets harder AIs at higher levels. The question is: can (or how much) a UU help you fight a tech advanced AI? For Cho-Ko-Nu, I think the answer is yes, and definitely a lot!

Suppose you are facing a stack of advanced units. Using other UU, every fight is of bad chance, OR you have to sacrifice much more cats. Using CKN, no matter how strong the enemy stack is in the beginning, you get them all down quickly by collateral damage. The first several attackers could well die, but the successors get great chance to win. In this sense, CKN is never obsolete, which is much better than other UUs.

Especially about knight: CKN doesn't fear knight at all, because knight doesn't receive defensive bonus. Other units of the similar period: pike, sword, mace, elephant, longbow, no one is really a stopper for CKN. Obviously, this kind of longevity is not true for praetorian.

 

[dh_epic]

Not to mention machinery is but a couple steps from guilds and the much better attacking Knights. ...

... even after you get them, with their 1 movement, it takes a long time to get them into the front lines.

That's the point. You discover machinery, produce several chokonus, move them in, and then back them up with knights shortly after. You simply cannot win war in Civ 4 with only one unit type.

And to use their collateral damage ability, they must attack stacks (cities), which vs. AI is going to be archer and longbowmen, hence no 50% melee bonus.

Again, you're operating under the Civ 3 assumption: you only bring one unit type, and lots of it. The great thing about crossbows in general is that there's no strong counter to them.

Imagine instead that you held out for guilds and spammed knights. Knights are not only vulnerable to pikes, but upgraded spears. On the other hand, a stack with knights and crossbows/chokonus are VERY hard to take down.

And after the chokonus have thwarted the pikes and spears, you might lose only one or two when you weaken the stack behind the city walls, and let the knights make easy work of anything behind there.

If you want to wage war in the early era, stick with the Romans and the nearly unstoppable Praetorians.

Praetorians come a LOT earlier than crossbows. I've waged a with horses and/or swords, and then done a seperate war with crossbows and/or knights in the same game.

But even so, someone expecting a prat rush can thwart them with axes, let alone upgraded axes. If you operate under the Civ 3 assumption that the most important combat occurs at the city steps, you'd be right. But in Civ 4, the most important combat occurs at the borders, before the units reach the cities. Your city raider pratorians would be vulnerable to a unit one tech earlier than them. (Axes with 5 combat get +100% bonus against swords, let alone if they get the additional 50% from a promotion.)

I'm not saying that pratorians are NOT one of the best units in the game. But to use their advantage properly, you need the element of surprise, because even 'inferior' units can stop them. Crossbows and chokonus are much different.