Cho-Ko-Nu Strategy

[Brad55]

I've played almost all my games with Qin Shi Huang (Noble difficulty) and have found little use for China's UU. I'm wondering what types of strategies players use with regards to this unit. I've read a few posts that consider this unit to be pretty powerful but I don't see it. I typically don't even build it for a few reasons:

1) Machinery is an expensive early technology to research. I'm assuming most players would use an Oracle slingshot to Metal Casting? How about a slingshot directly to Machinery?

2) The collateral damage is nice but the same results could be achieved using the catapult, which is much more versatile in my mind. In addition to the collateral damage bonus, a catapult can help break down those pesky +40%, +60% cultural defenses that you frequently encounter in medieval warfare. They're also a cheaper investment at 40 hammers as opposed to 60.

3) In Warlords, the Cho-Ko-Nu has received a +20% collateral damage defense in addition to its other bonuses. However, how often do you see the computer throw a stack of catapults at you anyway? I play on Noble difficulty so maybe on the higher levels?

4) In addition to researching the expensive Machinery tech, you must also research Iron Working (for the iron of course) as well as Archery, which is a tech path I rarely choose as I find it to be a dead-end tech (the shifting of traits in the Warlords expansion has given Qin the protective trait so my opinion on the Archery path may have to change). Also, you must acquire the necessary iron which could involve having to build another settler. All of this = a heckuva lot of wasted time and research when Axemen and, to a lesser extent, Catapults are so readily available for war.

5) By the time you have researched Machinery, Civil Service is only a stone throw away which gives access to Macemen anyway.

First strikes (and the fact that the unit isn't a melee unit) seem to be the only real advantages this unit has to offer (don't get me wrong here, I find both to be pretty good bonuses). Also, the window during which time these units are effective seems extremely short and can easily be bridged using the Axemen -> Catapult, Macemen -> Catapult stack (all of which are acquired using what I consider to be a more streamlined tech research path). Any opinions and suggestions would be appreciated as to how (and when) you can effectively use this UU.

Edit: Actually, I just found out that it's the Drill II promotion that gives the +20% collateral damage defense.

 

[theimmortal1]

You are badly mistaking how important collateral damage is.


I am sure you've used cats before to induce collateral damage, you've seen how powerful they are. Well Chokos do exactly that plus a lot more. You got the first strikes plus they are strong as it is. It is one of the best UUs if used right.

Sure a cat/mace/axe/sword war could do the trick also. But you'll take a lot less damage with the chokos and they do last longer.

 

[occam]

I don't think Brad55 is badly mistaken about how important collateral damage is.

I have reached almost the same conclusions as Brad55 about Cho-Ku-Nu after trying many times to make them dance for me (mostly Qin).

First, let me say, I know, and I think Brad knows, collateral damage is important. It is awesome. It rules. But you can get some from cats, which Brad55 mentions, so it is not like we are saying "hey, try with no collateral" ... in addition, don't you find that you chew through your units that deliver the collateral damage? ie, after an assault, you don't have a ton of them left? So at least some of your units will see just one combat. Suddenly, cheaper cats that reduce fortification don't seem crazy. Sure, it is understandable that a reasonable person might conclude that Cho-Ku-Nus have a slight edge per production unit since they might win more often.

But then you have to at least consider Brad55's OTHER points -- that deploying them distorts one's research path and the limited window of usefulness before macemen and bigger hitters.

Allow me to amplify what Brad55 says about the pace of the tech path with warmongering plans... I find it pretty natural to rush with axemen, then rush again as I hit new units with any tech or resource lead. But the axemen rush forces a break to digest, to assimilate, replace my own losses, etc. There is a certain rythym of engage, pause, engage pause. (Am I crazy here?) And Cho-Ku-Nus seem to fall in a "pause" stage. Sure they're good, but by the time I am ready to have a second major war, I've already got macemen or better.

They are the best UU at a time they can't be well-used. Please, tell me(us?) HOW to use them right!

Regards
- Occam

 

[NaZdReG]

choks have a somewhat hidden advantage. can you hold a city with just 3 catapults?? unlikely. if you hit someone with 12 choks and some other units (about right for that time period of war) you can leave 3 yellow lined ones in the city.. thats where the protective trait kicks in and will hold off just about any counter attack. if you're smart you also have either some horse archers or chariots floating around outside the main stack to intercept problem units (like cats)

when i'm playing china and i'm ready to really hurt someone I hit them with an army of
4 siege (will be trebs from now on) only for defense damage
10 choks
3 axemen
2 spears
3 swordsman
4-6 HA or cats, in flanking positions to scout ahead and intercept counter atks

yes yes you get macemen soon after this, but even then the collateral dmg is higher than what a cat puts out and they are better than xbows.. a typical defense unit at that time period. when you get engineering you can have defense of a city with 2-3 choks and 2 pikemen and an axemen.. good luck for the enemy to stop that.

the collateral dmg is also nice if you are defending a city.. atk with one and weaken their whole stack.. greatly reducing the odds of them taking your city.. regardless of stack size.

happy warmongering!

NaZ

 

[obsolete]

Strange that so many people think choks suck, because I generaly HATE it when I see the AI marching them towards my cities.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

Protective makes them a lot nastier, Free CG I and Drill I makes them more effective. Adding more Drill when they promote gives them extra chances to kick some butt and walk unscathed.

 

[theimmortal1]

You need to remember Chokos can attack normally very effectively also.

For example first Choko attacks, deal collateral damage and survives. Second Choko attacks and maybe dies but deals collateral damage. And the rest mop up....

And now they get promotions, so the next battle none of them die, and city after city will fall.

Cats are great, but they die. 10 chokos will end up dealing more damage than 25 cats after a couple wars if you use them properly...because they won't die.


And about his thing about the research path. What he says is not true. Just because you have machinery doesn't mean you are near civil service. Using that logic you will always be "near" another military tech that will give you a stronger unit. You can't war like that.

If you get a couple worker techs, oracle for metal casting. Then work your way to machinery, perhaps maybe getting alphabet first. Then you can start getting chokos. Get Construction and COL...by now you can have an army of 10 chokos easy, make a few cats. And now you'd be researching CS.

 

[Andrei_V]

What if you just research Metal Casting early (the pre-reqs are BW and Pottery), rush a Forge, assign an Engineer, get a GE and burn it towards Machinery? While waiting for GE, research IW and whatever else you need.

 

[Cam_H]

Some further reading: Q: Correct use of Cho-Ko-Nus

 

[Brad55]

I'm not saying that this UU sucks, I'm just wondering what the reasons might be for opting to build these units over a more conventional route (like Macemen -> Catapults). I actually think they could be effective in the right circumstances and during the right time frame.

As to theimmortal1's quote about the research path, it's true that Machinery isn't going to put you closer to Civil Service. However, that was only one of my points. The research path required to begin buildling these units is the main reason I don't build them in the first place.

1) Bronze Working (Needed for Iron Working)
2) Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood (To construct The Oracle)
3) The Wheel -> Pottery (Needed for Metal Casting)
4) Metal Casting (Free ... Oracle)
5) Hunting -> Archery (Need Archery)
6) Machinery (Need Machinery)

That's ten total techs (@ 5,733 beakers) to research for one UU. Great, you're ready to go to war with your Cho-Ko-Nu's (that is provided you can find the necessary iron)...

Compare that to a more conventional research path I might take:
1) Bronze Working (For Axemen)
2) Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Writing (For Oracle)
3) Code of Laws (Free ... Oracle)
4) Masonry -> Mathematics -> Construction (For Catapults)

That's nine techs (@ 4,407 beakers) to research for a pretty good stack of units. Add in the fact that I'm only two techs away from Literature (The Great Library) and one tech away from Civil Service
(Bureacracy) and I think you can see why I'm hard pressed to find a reason to opt for the former research path. Again, the Axemen are dependant upon finding copper.

I tend to look not only at a UU's stats and bonuses but also at the research path and time requirements it would take to get these units online. I also try to factor in where that particular research path might take me in the near future and how far away certain key units or wonders may be from it.

Edit: Actually, I forgot to include Iron Working in the first research path so that makes it eleven techs to research (same number of beakers I just forgot to include Iron Working in the list).

 

[pigswill]

Another aspect of CKN is that they make excellent alternative to longbows for defence as well as being useful ancillary attackers; defending with CKNs actually keeps you on a research path better than diverting to feudalism.
Obviously you don't need machinery for civil service but you do need machinery for maces.

 

[Sisiutil]

Strange that so many people think choks suck, because I generaly HATE it when I see the AI marching them towards my cities.

This is because there's the potential, for a very long time, that there will not be a truly effective counter to the CKN.

If you bee-line to Machinery via an Oracle-powered MC slingshot, you can have CKNs out and about long before their true contemporary counter appears, the Knight. No other medieval or earlier unit stands a very good chance against a CKN, especially if it's promoted and on good defensive terrain. Under those circumstances, the CKN amounts to an immoveable object. It can pillage with near impunity, it can protect a stack or a vital resource, and on top of that, it's a decent attacking unit as well.

 

[yavoon]

This is because there's the potential, for a very long time, that there will not be a truly effective counter to the CKN.

If you bee-line to Machinery via an Oracle-powered MC slingshot, you can have CKNs out and about long before their true contemporary counter appears, the Knight. No other medieval or earlier unit stands a very good chance against a CKN, especially if it's promoted and on good defensive terrain. Under those circumstances, the CKN amounts to an immoveable object. It can pillage with near impunity, it can protect a stack or a vital resource, and on top of that, it's a decent attacking unit as well.

if the cho ko nu is defending its just a crappy longbow so who cares? I dont know whether ur implying this is MP or something. but if ur not, I'm not sure whats more nonsensical, making the cho ko nu to "put him on good defensive terrain" or beelining to a unit because it "pillages really well."

 

[pigswill]

50% vs melee and extra first strike is not a 'crappy longbow'.

 

[yavoon]

50% vs melee and extra first strike is not a 'crappy longbow'.

they're also 20% more expensive and dont get a hills or city bonus, but whatever. I'm not sure if we're talking about what a person would do against a pillaging cho ko nu(not hard) or what u can do to the AI. if its the latter then I confess I can pillage the AI w/ maces, and maces get city raider.

 

[Andrei_V]

Cho-Ko-Nus are real hard to kill with Maces+Cats, I'd definiltely prefer to face Longbows instead. Two First Strikes is nothing to laugh at. Besides, they can attack the stack of Maces, and quite successful. You need something like Knights or at least a couple of Elephants to counter them.

I just tried to get Machinery using GE from Forge, with no wonders. I got it somewhere around 100 BC on Monarch. The GE takes 34 turns. I think it can be accelerated a little by a wonder, such as Hanging Gardens.

BTW, in this game I got attacked by Caesar like 300 years before, so I had some fun watching Praets to die to my Chokos.

On Noble-Prince, I believe, a direct Machinery Slingshot via Oracle is possible.

 

[Mutineer]

they're also 20% more expensive and dont get a hills or city bonus, but whatever.

They are 20% more expencive, but they do get city or hill promotion and they do use terran defence. They continue to have they additional first strikes on defence.

 

[yavoon]

if the ai made lotsa maces then I'd put, say 2 cho ko nu's in my stack. but remember, if ur the aggressor u can't pick the matchups. u basically just have to wade through the bad odds w/ numbers. so its best to have the maces 8 strength+city raiders.

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

However, how often do you see the computer throw a stack of catapults at you anyway?

Depends on how many units you would define as a "stack". But he seems to like throwing at least two or three with every stack he sends at my cities in Monarch.

 

[Killroyan]

I thought Choks were already usefull but in warlords they have become superb units then I guess. Lets see what is mentioned over here:
1. 20% defensive colateral damage. So you are attaking a city defended by choks and your stack gets damaged!! This is huge. At least that is how I read the OP and I don't have warlords yet.
2. Chinese are protective now so all choks get Drill I and CGI. Ouch, it is going to be hard in warlords to conquer the chinese in those times.
If these 2 points turn out to be true then the Chinese have the best city defender in the game.