Brad55, I don't think that you're trying to use them correctly.
The goal is to get the Choko's out on the offensive before the enemy has Macemen, and hopefully even before longbowmen. If you can do that, the Choko offensive needs very little cat support (you can start it before you research Mathematics and Construction), and has no effective counter (meaning no need for combined arms in your attack army).
Brad55 said:
I've played almost all my games with Qin Shi Huang (Noble difficulty) and have found little use for China's UU. I'm wondering what types of strategies players use with regards to this unit. I've read a few posts that consider this unit to be pretty powerful but I don't see it. I typically don't even build it for a few reasons:
1) Machinery is an expensive early technology to research. I'm assuming most players would use an Oracle slingshot to Metal Casting? How about a slingshot directly to Machinery?
That will work. Since you're Industrious, you're bee-lining to Metal Casting anyway, to fully leverage your strengths with cheap Forges, right? I actually think this is one of the beauties of Qin and Choko's, the UU and the leader trait have strong synergy on the tech path.
2) The collateral damage is nice but the same results could be achieved using the catapult, which is much more versatile in my mind. In addition to the collateral damage bonus, a catapult can help break down those pesky +40%, +60% cultural defenses that you frequently encounter in medieval warfare. They're also a cheaper investment at 40 hammers as opposed to 60.
You start the Choko war before you even have Cats. They can take out anything in a 20% cultural defense with no catupult support. If you're willing to handle the loss of a unit or two, you won't even need the cats on a 40% defense city. You'll still need the cats bombardment for the higher defense cities. If possible, get the Choko's out and about pillaging and destroying/taking the outlying cities of your enemy, while you finish the Construction tech and get a few cats built later for the final/large cities.
3) In Warlords, the Cho-Ko-Nu has received a +20% collateral damage defense in addition to its other bonuses. However, how often do you see the computer throw a stack of catapults at you anyway? I play on Noble difficulty so maybe on the higher levels?
I don't have Warlords, so can't say anything about that. But the enemy will probably have Cats by the time your Choko stacks show up, and in my experience, the AI WILL try to use them on your stacks. In fact, a suicide cat followed by a HA is about the only counter offensive you'll need to worry about.
4) In addition to researching the expensive Machinery tech, you must also research Iron Working (for the iron of course) as well as Archery, which is a tech path I rarely choose as I find it to be a dead-end tech (the shifting of traits in the Warlords expansion has given Qin the protective trait so my opinion on the Archery path may have to change). Also, you must acquire the necessary iron which could involve having to build another settler. All of this = a heckuva lot of wasted time and research when Axemen and, to a lesser extent, Catapults are so readily available for war.
Hmmmm... If copper is handy, I understand an early Axeman rush, and skipping Archery. In that situation, the drive to war with Cats/Axe would be the best approach.
But that's not going to be the case in all games. My experience --- less than 50% do I have copper easily available. So I end up having to get Archery for early Barb defense, and then go for IW for AI defense. That fits nicely with the tech tree progression for Choko's -- nothing out of the way at all.
5) By the time you have researched Machinery, Civil Service is only a stone throw away which gives access to Macemen anyway.
?????? From the start of a Choko war to get to Macemen, you'll need to research (in kind of reverse order):
Civil Service, Code of Laws, (Priesthood and early religions) OR ( Mathematics and Currency)
Writing you'll still need for Choko's, because you'll need a couple of libraries to get through the Metal Casting and Machinery slog.
If I'm adding up the beakers correctly, your "stone's throw away from Macemen" is further than the research needed to research both Metal Casting and Machinery. That's a looooonnnnnnng stone's throw.
First strikes (and the fact that the unit isn't a melee unit) seem to be the only real advantages this unit has to offer (don't get me wrong here, I find both to be pretty good bonuses). Also, the window during which time these units are effective seems extremely short and can easily be bridged using the Axemen -> Catapult, Macemen -> Catapult stack (all of which are acquired using what I consider to be a more streamlined tech research path). Any opinions and suggestions would be appreciated as to how (and when) you can effectively use this UU.
I think that's where you're biggest issue is. Your "streamlined tech research path" is not geared toward Qin and Choko's. You'll have to learn to be more flexible in your tech research paths if you want to see the maximum power you can get from all the different leaders and UU's.
And again, if you have copper, you ARE better off starting an Axeman/Cat war. Then research toward Machinery during the war. This may mean that you'll have accomplished your military objectives and be in a consolidation phase during the sweet spot of Choko's. In those games, luck will have dealt you a hand that didn't need the Choko's advantages (though they still will allow you to get away with less defensive forces in your cities).
If you don't have copper, you'll have to wait until IW to do any Axe war. By that time, a stack of Axes by themselves won't be very effective -- the AI (especially if it DOES have copper) will have some Axes of his own to counter, and even without that counter, any city with 40% or more defense will be pretty hard to take until your Cats show up.
ok, I log myself... WHAT!! a blank "reply to thread" page !!
Why does this forum asks me my logging every few minutes????
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