Chop before building a district?

[PendragonWRB]

Why? The way it currently is makes it a choice, your version would just give you a bonus every time.

I prefer the current version.

It seems like a lot of pointless micro management to have to have a builder on hand, wait until it does the chop, and then start a district. When the district construction crew comes in they should use whatever materials are at hand. It already takes forever to build most things, why should it take a couple more turns? The really sad part is there is no way to get that material into the new district, you have to build something else first to not completely waste it.

 

[Ryika]

That logic of "pointless micro management" can be used for everything. "Why should I have to plant Improvements? That's just useless micromanagement, they should be planted automatically!" I'd agree if chopping was always the right answer, but it's a decision that changes from case to case.

The problem of "waiting until it does the chop" is just a result of bad planning. Should have chopped it before you even wanted to place the district.

 

[Zenstrive]

This is why I think builder shouldn't be gone when it has lost its charges.
It should be able to recharge in city center or industrial zone, albeit maybe 10 or 20 % per turn.

 

[Amrunril]

Why? The way it currently is makes it a choice, your version would just give you a bonus every time.

I prefer the current version.

It isn't a very interesting choice, though, at least not if things are well baanced. If chopping/harvesing is remotely viable under normal circumstances, it's a no brainer when you know you'll never even have the option of working the tile again.

 

[Ryika]

It isn't a very interesting choice, though, at least not if things are well baanced. If chopping/harvesing is remotely viable under normal circumstances, it's a no brainer when you know you'll never even have the option of working the tile again.

What you're saying doesn't make sense to me. "If things are well balanced" then chopping is by definition not "a no-brainer". Instead, it is sometimes viable, and sometimes it isn't.

Whether it is depends on a lot of things, the main ones I can think of:
- What yield do I get? How much will this city benefit from that yield?
- What other things could I do with that Worker Charge, and will I have time to construct a new worker before I want these other things to be done? If not, is chopping more important?
- How many turns will I lose when I move my worker there? Is that delay worth it?
- What if I chop the resource long before I plant the district? Will that still be worth it?
etc.

Harvesting that food resource for your brand-new city where you'll want to plant some Improvements anyway may be a no-brainer, but will you do the same in your 20+ population city if it means moving a worker through half of your empire? I'd assume not. Finding a sweet-spot where as many instances as possible fall into the grey area of "Might be good, might be a waste." is all you need for the feature to not be a no-brainer.

 

[elitetroops]

This is not actually in the game. It just leaves a road...

I just noticed that myself as well. I believe said in some of the previews you would have to clear it, but it must have changed.

 

[Amrunril]

What you're saying doesn't make sense to me. "If things are well balanced" then chopping is by definition not "a no-brainer". Instead, it is sometimes viable, and sometimes it isn't.

I was coming from the perspective that chopping should be a situationally viable option even in cases where you're not sacrificing the tile for a district or wonder, which is what I meant by "if things are well balanced" (sorry if that I didn't make that clear). Since expending a builder charge to chop forests is essentially sacrificing hammers to gain hammers, any situationality in that decision needs to come from the sacrifice of future tile yields, and in the case of a district/wonder tile, those future yields are nonexistent.


Edit: As I think more about this, I realize that there would be other situational uses for chopping woods even if it wasn't intrinsically hammer efficient. Clearing farmland, transferring production from an established city to a new one and "banking" production while waiting to hit population thresholds or unlock wonders all come to mind, in addition to clearing district tiles. My point of view is that chopping should be viable as a way of gaining immediate production at the cost of future production (which does necessitate it being a more or less automatic choice when you're sacrificing that future production anyway), but it wouldn't be an inherently wrong design choice for chopping to only be useful under these more narrow circumstances.

 

[TehJumpingJawa]

1) Chop to build workers/settlers.
2) 1 charge workers get sold, using the money to buy.... whatever you need. (Military? Tiles?)
3) Settle, and repeat

Seems like chopping is so profitable, you could fund an insane ICS with it.
Rome for free starting building in each city?
Russia for extra tiles?
China so you can get get the most out of worker spam synergies?

 

[skallben]

Sidenote: Roman legions can chop once instead of building fort.

 

[kaspergm]

It seems like a lot of pointless micro management to have to have a builder on hand, wait until it does the chop, and then start a district. When the district construction crew comes in they should use whatever materials are at hand. It already takes forever to build most things, why should it take a couple more turns? The really sad part is there is no way to get that material into the new district, you have to build something else first to not completely waste it.

That logic of "pointless micro management" can be used for everything. "Why should I have to plant Improvements? That's just useless micromanagement, they should be planted automatically!" I'd agree if chopping was always the right answer, but it's a decision that changes from case to case.

The problem of "waiting until it does the chop" is just a result of bad planning. Should have chopped it before you even wanted to place the district.

I'm normally not in favor of too much streamlining, but in this case, I think I agree with Pendragon that it's really cumbersome. I often find that if I want to place a district on a forest/jungle, I first need to build a worker, then I have to get the worker to the target tile, which will be at least one extra turn because of the new move rules, and in that turn, I can't start the district, so meanwhile I need to build something else, and the production from the chop can't go towards the actual district because the district can't be started until the feature is removed. So in this case, I really feel there are an awful lot of obstacles on a pretty trivial part of the game.

 

[Luckystrike77]

I'm normally not in favor of too much streamlining, but in this case, I think I agree with Pendragon that it's really cumbersome. I often find that if I want to place a district on a forest/jungle, I first need to build a worker, then I have to get the worker to the target tile, which will be at least one extra turn because of the new move rules, and in that turn, I can't start the district, so meanwhile I need to build something else, and the production from the chop can't go towards the actual district because the district can't be started until the feature is removed. So in this case, I really feel there are an awful lot of obstacles on a pretty trivial part of the game.

Lol, somebody don't understand the new game mechanics for sure. Of course you can't get any free chops. Builders should always be needed to chop before planting Districts, Wonders, Aqueducts, or you will undermine very much of the very concept and game design arround the new "charged" workers, and the Districts etc on tiles system.

 

[elitetroops]

and the production from the chop can't go towards the actual district because the district can't be started until the feature is removed.

I'm pretty sure it can. If the city has just finished producing something else and you do the chop before selecting new production, it should go towards whatever you select next. I did this once and at least got the impression the chop went to the district since production time was significantly shorter than what the build menu told me. Of course, those numbers lie all the time, so maybe I am wrong... Needs more testing.

 

[Disgustipated]

Anyone know if hammers carry over? What I've been doing so far since I can't actually work the district until it is chopped is start work on another builder, chop and get a boost to the new builder, then switch to the district. Since I can't direct those hammers to the district itself.

 

[elitetroops]

Anyone know if hammers carry over? What I've been doing so far since I can't actually work the district until it is chopped is start work on another builder, chop and get a boost to the new builder, then switch to the district. Since I can't direct those hammers to the district itself.

Yes hammers carry over. I'm not sure if there is a limit, as in can you have more overflow than the cost of the build you just completed (if you can it could be seriously exploited).

 

[The Highwayman]

Sidenote: Roman legions can chop once instead of building fort.

I realized this last night while playing. Makes a great UU even better.

 

[x2Madda]

Why? The way it currently is makes it a choice, your version would just give you a bonus every time.

I prefer the current version.

There is no difference. At present, those 'in the know' will pre-chop everything and those in the dark, won't. Same as setting cities to production in civ5 for bonus hammers when a population is born. Even when selling workers for gold is removed, the extra resources from cutting things down is still worth it as opposed to not doing so.

Infact given that cities are expected to replace tiles with districts anyway, the cut down bonus should always apply.

 

[esoba]

Thanks to this thread I have started chopping before placing districts. Has made a little bit of a difference and was something I hadn't thought about.

 

[Grotius]

Legions can chop?! OMG, time for them to get busy.

Legions seem to retain their special ability even after they upgrade, don't they?

And yeah, I'm gonna start chopping before placing districts. Will require actual advance planning!