Chop out workers and settlers or build on resources?

[LincolnOfRome]

I was reading Pete's strategy guide, and it suggested that civilizations that started with mining may be at an advantage to learn bronze working first to chop out a second worker and settler first--rather than to go the traditional route of learning agriculture, hunting (deer), and animal husbandry to tie up food resources first.

I was playing a quick game with Gandhi (starts with mining), and I was wondering whether it would be a good strategy to tech bronze working or food techs first.

 

[SyntaxError]

For me at the start of the game, I will always start with ways to improve food first.

 

[Thrar]

I would expect that in most cases, there is little use for getting a second worker so early. There is just not so much you need or can (without techs) improve urgently, and your city won't grow faster than a single worker can support.

You could use the two workers to chop out a settler very early, but even then, you usually want to build at least a warrior to accompany that settler. You could use the warrior build to grow to size 2 instead of getting a second worker right away and speed up all subsequent builds including the worker and settler.
Also keep in mind that chopping out a settler and worker very early will probably take 4 forests altogether. That's 2 points of and a lot of hammers you can't put into other things later.

 

[elmurcis]

If there is strong 2nd city place, than this strategy can pay back in very short time. If capital has fresh water, than I don't care chopping lot of forest.. i save forests only to build some key wonders (specially wonders that get resource bonus, latest would be GLibrary.. 6 chops and its done)..
and with early BW you can see where is copper and if can get it inside 1st or 2nd city borders... early game can get much much more options than usual way with AH/Agr/fish etc. (like rush neighbour.. get lof of promoted axes from barbs etc)

 

[Nials]

Also keep in mind that chopping out a settler and worker very early will probably take 4 forests altogether. That's 2 points of and a lot of hammers you can't put into other things later.

EDIT: As Pangaea pointed out, I was wrong. Each forest gives +0.5 .

All of this aside, though, I more often than not find it very worthwhile to cut aggressively early on. The extra early production is typically much more important than long-term health. Unimproved forests are also very poor tiles to work.

 

[Ghpstage]

That guide is from 2006, its probably before the time that the power of chopping was reduced significantly. At that time it was pretty much the defacto best opening, but now improving food is the way to go.

 

[LincolnOfRome]

Thanks, did pre-Math chops used to produce more than 20 ? I've started a game already where I started by researching BW; I hope it won't hurt too much.

 

[Ghpstage]

Thanks, did pre-Math chops used to produce more than 20 ? I've started a game already where I started by researching BW; I hope it won't hurt too much.

Yes they gave 30.
I remember a while back someone was arguing for someone to use this 'optimal' start based on this thread in the war academy, without realising that the basis of the article was out of date.

 

[LincolnOfRome]

Thanks for informing me about the game mechanics change. Still, it might work out all right for Gandhi in a quick game. Fast Workers can produce in two turns of chopping what other civ's workers produce in three.

 

[Pangaea]

Not always. Each forest gives 0.4 , rounded down. So assuming those 4 forests are all the forests your capital has, you will only lose 1 as we round down to the nearest integer from 4*0.4 = 1.6 . We might lose 2 though with a greater number of forests due to rounding.

Let's say we have 8 forests. In this case the bonus is 8*0.4 = 3.2 . If we chop 4 forests, we drop to 4*0.4 = 1.6 , thus effectively losing 2 . In this case, it also doesn't matter (with respect to health, anyway) if we chop 1, 2 or 3 forests, the net result will in all three cases be 1 .

All of this aside, though, I more often than not find it very worthwhile to cut aggressively early on. The extra early production is typically much more important than long-term health. Unimproved forests are also very poor tiles to work.

Each forest give 0.5 health, not 0.4. So you always want an even number of forests, since you get nothing for the odd one.

However, flood plains give 0.4 unhealth, so here it's different. You can have 4 floodplains and still only get 1 unhealth, or 7 and only get 2 unhealth.

 

[Nials]

Argh, yes. You're right, I got forests mixed up with flood plains.

Thanks for the correction!