cities with size 80 and how did you get to know civ?

[addiv]

How can you get cities with the size of 80 without cheating?!?! The current number one in the hall of fame list has a lot of cities in his game that are bigger than size 46, some or even 90 or so.
So how is that possible. 1 other question, just because I am curious: how did you get to know civ (or civ 2) and what where your first experiences with the game? I myself got civ 1 in 1995 from a friend of my father, and the first 8 months I didn't understand anything of it, in the first place because I didn't have a manual, in the second place because my english was very bad and in the third place because I knew no-one who knew the game. So when I played it the first 3 times I didn't know what to do with the strange icon at the beginning (settlers) so I tried all the characters on the keyboard and when I hit 'b' something happened! But what? After that I didn't know anything to do so i pressed enter all the time and in a while some sort soldiers arose. They were very irritating because I had to move them all the time before I could press enter. After a while that the problem could be solved by hitting 'f'. But I found the game very boring and after playing it 3 or 4 times I didn't play it for 8 months or so, before I started trying it again. Next time the next episode of my getting acquainted with civ!

 

[shadowdale]

Well it's actually rather simple to get cities bigger than 40+ which is more or less their "natural" max. It's food caravans - and it's know as the food caravan trick in the Civ community.

We all know that when a city's food stock is full then it grows one in size. So what you do when using the food caravan trick is that you build lot's and lot's of food caravans and let them "help" other cities - thei increases the food available by one, but more importantly it fills up 50% of the food stock - so two caravans in one turn would fill up the food stock and thereby artificially force the city to grow in size. This is what is know as the food caravan trick - it is almost impossible to do if you don't have granary/pyramides but if you do then it's quite easy.

As to how I got started with Civ - well it was back in 92 I think, and I got it from a friwend who idn't play it - so I tried it out and used the advisors very much and read all the menues and the civilopidea. I won the first game on chieftain - but I didn't lauch until late 2200AD - after that I tried to load a savegame that was on e the disks(warlord) I played it and lost - reloaded and won and since that time it's been going up all the time....

 

[starlifter]

How can you get cities with the size of 80 without cheating?!?! The current number one in the hall of fame list has a lot of cities in his game that are bigger than size 46, some or even 90 or so.

You are referring to Shadowdale's game. I see he has responded, but because you use the "Cheat" word with his city size and game, I think it is important to squash that thought right away. Particularly since so many seem to misunderstand the way Civ II allows cities to grow.

It is not necessary to cheat to get a size 80, or even 90 or 127 size city!

It is the Food Caravan Trick (FCT). This is well-doucumented, and not a cheat. Do a search (use the Search function!), and you can even use my name a search parameter, since I've personally explained this in great detail before, as have others.

In a nutshell, creating food caravans (or freight) and delivering them to cities will add food to the food box. When the box fills, the city will grow next turn no matter what (if one has a sewer & aquaduct when larger than size 12).

But this is not the trick part of the FCT!!!

The trick is to always use caravans from one specific city to go to another city. Civ II will only charge the source city a single food, even if you send 100 such caravans. In effect, you can force a city to grow up to 127 by simply using shields (and maybe gold) to build such caravans and carefully planning your route.

So Shadowdale's large cities are not a cheat, and you should not post that term without understanding it beforehand.


BTW, huge food deficits in a city in no way indicate cheating... a lot of people misunderstand that, too... even some of the "experts" at Apolyton.

As in games, people may get toghether and decide not to use certain "legal" things. Common examples are no "Airfield on a Hill", no "FCT", no bribes, no ship chains, etc. In the CFC HOF, the FCT is allowed, and in any event is not a cheat.

BTW, the approximate maximum score one can attain without the FCT is about 18,000, under ideal circumstances. The max score even with the FCT is just under 40,000. Shadowdale's game is not even the theoretical maximum score... But big scores take a lot of time, LOL... a lot of it.

 

[Peteus]

I have to disagree, 'lifter!
Not that I've actually tried it, but if you are saying that one can arrange to have a source city take a deficit of only -1 food while supplying the destination city with +50 per turn (by sending 50 caravans to the same city), then I have an issue! That would clearly be a bug. If you disagree, where would you argue that other 49 food is coming from? Taking advantage of bugs is sleazy, IMHO.

But hey, different strokes! You paid the money for the game...just don't try it in an MP game with me, or I'll get all snarly!

 

[Sevorak]

Peteus, I think you misunderstand the FCT. Either that or I misunderstand it.

There are three events, so far as I know, associated with the delivery of a food caravan.

1) Set source city to -1 food per turn.
2) Set destination city to +1 food per turn.
3) Fill food box of city half-way.

The last one is the important one. Let's say, as an example. Kells delivers food to Cardiff. Kells is now food -1 per turn. Cardiff is food +1 per turn. Cardiff's food box is filled half-way. Kells sends another food caravan to Cardiff. Kells is set to -1 food per turn. Since it already was -1 food per turn, nothing changes. So next turn, it will only be down 1 food. Cardiff is set to +1 food per turn. Since it was already +1 food per turn, nothing changes. Next turn, it will get +1 food. The important part? Box fills half-way again. At the beginning of the next turn, Cardiff will grow one, since the box is full.

So the +1/-1 food thing is completely balanced. The key part is the half-fill of the food box.

-Sev

 

[starlifter]

I have to disagree, 'lifter! Not that I've actually tried it, but if you are saying that one can arrange to have a source city take a deficit of only -1 food while supplying the destination city with +50 per turn (by sending 50 caravans to the same city), then I have an issue! That would clearly be a bug. If you disagree, where would you argue that other 49 food is coming from? Taking advantage of bugs is sleazy, IMHO.

It's OK to disagree, so no worries. But I'll elaborate.

It is not a cheat, because the game allows it. If I had porgrammed the game, or even better, been the product/porject manager... then I would not have allowed the cities to make unlimited food caravans, and would certainly never allow them to suppy infinite food for a cost of (-1) grain per turn!!! And since Shadowdale was going for an ultra-high score with larger than "natural" cities, the only way to do this is with the FCT. Which is what he did, and is in itself not a cheat.

However, what you are talking about is the agreement of a group of people not do do certain things, like the FCT, or maybe Airbase on a Hill, etc. If someone violates such things, then for the group, you can call it a "Cheat". But the HOF did not forbid the FCT, so ergo Shadowdale did not cheat. In fact, others are free to exceed his score, but it a time consuming thing to do, LOL.

If you disagree, where would you argue that other 49 food is coming from? Taking advantage of bugs is sleazy, IMHO.

I don't disagree that in my opinion it is a bug. But Sid Meier knows about it, and so does Microprose... yet they have elected not to fix it even with the most recent patch.

I personally don't use the FCT, and never have. On my personal list, there is nothing "worse", for the very reasons you state. But I defend Shadowdale because it is not, in fact, a "cheat".

Further, Shadowdale does not use the FCT in any of the GOTMs. In fact, I know of no reputable player that would actually use the FCT in a comparison game, and don't believe the FCT has ever been used to make mongo cities or increase scores in the GOTMs. I can say that Shadowdale does not do it in his games, and he has won almost all the GOTMs.

In the HOF, however, one can indeed use it since the rules don't forbit it. It's not as if Shadowdale is trying to pass off his game as never having used the FCT. It is just a preference, and plus it is the only way to get more than about 18,000 points, even under ideal circumstances.

So Shadowdale is, in fact, not a cheat for using the FCT!!

So the +1/-1 food thing is completely balanced.

Yes, the FCT unbalances the game . But i don't think people use it, unless going for something specific, like a huge HOF score, or the fun of a big city, like the entertaining Rome game & website (by Andu, I think).

 

[SlowwHand]

Tribes (Teams) forming now.
Come to Civ II MP Tourney Forum to find out more.

MP at it's best, and makes this thread mute.

 

[SvenSlayer]

I've never got a city to size 80 (I don't use food routes so often). My biggest city ever was probably just below 30.

How did I start playing Civ? Well, when I got my first (double speed) CD-ROM I got a multi-game CD with Civilization (the first one, of course), Railroad Tycoon, F117A and Silent Service 2. I first didn't know how to play the game and thought it would take too long to get into it. But, as I saw my brother play the game day-by-day I slowly learnt. That CD also started me playing the Tycoon games (my favourite is still Transport Tycoon).

 

[starlifter]

my favourite is still Transport Tycoon

I admit my favorite tycoon is Railroad Tycoon II Gold, even with it's little flaws, limited graphics, and silly restrictions. I have not really played other tycoons much, but have watch others briefly.

 

[starlifter]

I've never got a city to size 80 (I don't use food routes so often). My biggest city ever was probably just below 30.

My biggest city ever is size 43... and only one at that size. I've had less than 5 42's, and several dozen 40's and 41's. I personally don't use the FCT, but would if going for an all-out assault on the 40,000 ultimate limit.

Cities won't WLT___ grow past size 41, BTW.

 

[donsig]

Never had a size thirty city. The FCT does seem to go against the spirit of the game but then again so does the airbase on a hill thingy. (BTW I am using the latter in GOTM 8 - is this taboo?)

I learned about Civ from my little brother. He passed Civ I on to me (before there was a Civ II) and I got hooked. As I recall we had a manual - needed it to get past a certain point in the game. (Software protection?) Bought Civ II and actually had to upgrade my computer! Looking forward to Civ III.

I also love Railroad Tycoon II. My one and only e-bay purchase was The Second Century. Haven't played it much because I found the Civfanatics GOTM.

I also play Diplomacy. Anyone ever heard of that?

 

[starlifter]

The FCT does seem to go against the spirit of the game but then again so does the airbase on a hill thingy. (BTW I am using the latter in GOTM 8 - is this taboo?)

No players use the FCT in the GOTMs, but honestly I don't know if it's a solid rule or not. But the Airbase is allowed, and is used on hills and everything else. From the games I've seen, I probably have about the most airbases. I also have the most airports, too! But then I'm also a pilot, so I like anything "Air".

BTW, in real life our Airbases often DO produce lots of food and have farmland. The are usually almost ideal for growing things. Also, when we build an airbase, we build the road and rail infrastructure for it, too. So I think those are good ideas.

 

[donsig]

Even though real airbases have a rail infrastructure and good farmland it still seems a bit weird that you can get an air base, railroad and extra food alot faster by just building an airbase rather than first building a road, then building the railroad, then irrigating then making the airbase!

I'm not complaining though...

 

[starlifter]

Even though real airbases have a rail infrastructure and good farmland it still seems a bit weird that you can get an air base, railroad and extra food alot faster by just building an airbase rather than first building a road, then building the railroad, then irrigating then making the airbase! I'm not complaining though..

I agree that the game balance for the airfield is improperly adjusted, given it's effects. The good thing is that the Airfield is only available in the very last part of the game

Personally, I ever would have made an Airfield possible to use in just 2 engineer turns... For game balance, it seems they should simple be transparant to the efects of underlying improvements, which is why I think it is OK for groups of people to limit Airfield use.

 

[Sevorak]

donsig,

I also play Diplomacy, but not with that extortionist rip-off money-leeching Hasbro game. I play FtF (with a real board!) and PBEM.

-Sev

 

[donsig]

Sevorak -

I haven't played Dip FTF in many years. Played by mail a LONG time ago.

Diplomacy is cetainly not a computer game BUT I did return to DIP a couple years ago and found that e-mail DIP can be very enjoyable...

 

[starlifter]

donsig,
I also play Diplomacy, but not with that extortionist rip-off money-leeching Hasbro game. I play FtF (with a real board!) and PBEM.

Hasbro, while often chrning out computer game garbage such as Risk II, actually did a good jobe with one game 5 years ago... Risk (or maybe "Risk I", now that the crappy Risk II is out). While I don't like conventional Risk, the extended risk, particularly the 180-country European map, is pretty darned good overall. And the computer requirements are fairly low, too.

Uhhhh, BTW, if someone is inclined to get one of these 2 games, pick Risk I and play the extended rules... it is far better than Risk II if you like strategy games.

 

[addiv]

Starlifter, I did not say that Shadowdale was cheating when creating cities size 80, I just didn't know it was possible...
I like this FCT thing, I'm going to try it out in all my games from now on! (not in GOTM games of course).
I agree airbases are far too cheap for what they do but I don't mind: when I get the radio I build airbases only (but not every where coz then my airplanes wouldn't be able to go very fast....
Okay after 8 months or so, I tried civ 1 again because my brother told me that he had found a '
`change' button when you clicked on the city.
So it tried some of the other words there (I had little idea what it all meant (because I'm from holland and was just 12 or so at the time) so I got my dictionary and slowly I began to learn what all those words (militia, legion, cavalry, granary etc.) meant. I even found out what "CHANGE meant."
So I built things different then militia and I built settlers and founded cities. But my little brother started playing too and he was the first one of us to get a "modern" game. It was 2850 AD with chieftain, he had 5 cities and he had just begun building armors. Then he discoverd SHIPS..
He sailed with a few armors to the empire of the ZULUS who only had musketeers and conquered them.
I got a modern game too and won it. I also remember having great fun when barbarians came because they always meant only one thing: MONEY!
(that was especially important because I hadn't discovered that improvements cost money and also I
hadn't discovered the tax-science screen (+))

So i always discovered advances really slowly and always had a loss in money. But, after playing civ
a few weeks it had already become my coolest game ever ( that was also because I had only a 486 at the time and had only been playing prince of persia, lotus, stunts and winter games (although these are also good games) before civ.)
okay, next time the next episode!

addiv

 

[starlifter]

Starlifter, I did not say that Shadowdale was cheating when creating cities size 80, I just didn't know it was possible...

You're right, you didn't actually say he cheated... but you did raise that word in your first line about his size 80 cities, and though you probably didn't mean it, there are lots of people, even good players at this website and other websites, that consider it a cheat, so I defend the right of Shadowdale to do it out of principle, even though I don't personally use it. There is no other fair way to push the game to a max score (Max=almost 40,000), except with the FCT. Thunderfall's HOF allows FCT, too. But maybe it should just have a special notation specifically identifying games with the FCT, then there should not be as much confusion by lots of people.

I agree airbases are far too cheap for what they do but I don't mind:

Well, the good thing about Airbases is that at least they cut the tedium of up to 30 turns of irrigation, farmland, roads, and railroads at the end of the game. I use them more and more in the last couple months.

So it tried some of the other words there (I had little idea what it all meant (because I'm from holland and was just 12 or so at the time) so I got my dictionary and slowly I began to learn what all those words

That is a cool story. I have had the same sort of experience when I go overseas and use computers. Last year, I learnd some Swedish when I had to do some work on a computer that only had Swedish MS Windows installed. Had my translation dictionary out and everything! I have so many of those little books... German, Spanish, Japanese, Arabic, Russian, Italian, etc... and I am terrible at picking up languages, LOL! I'm glad and impressed that everyone writes English so well.

Your narration (story) is good, and fun to read!

 

[LeSphinx]

I discovered Civ I 10 years ago. A friend of mine give me the game because he didn't like this kind of game. I was around 17/18 years old.
I didn't stop playing for 4-6 years.

When Civ II went out, I played but not as much as with civ I because I haven't so much time to play.
Right now I'm 29 and I can manage playing 1 game per month .
(Work, family...)
That is why I happy to found this GOTM.

Right now, I looking foward to play civ III: Trade system, diplomatic system, Great and small wonders.. That sound good to me...


For me, Civilization Series is a wonderfull game with no limits.

LeSphinx