Citizen Poll - Change in Article I of the Constitution - The Census

[donsig]

Originally posted by Cyc
Quick, Donsig. Put on your life-jacket. Get the women and children off first. Your ship is sinking.

We'll send help right away...

I think I'll look up Rain's old retirement post. She had a great line in it that I can't quite remember now but I'm beginning to think she was right.

 

[Shaitan]

Oops. I had just finished reading through some of the Infidel! thread and must have had part of my brain stuck there.

 

[Shaitan]

donsig, I know you don't agree with this proposal but take a look at the results. 80% approval in this Congressional poll. The Senatorial poll is 100% approval. This is definitely the will of the people. You've always been an outspoken proponent of following the will of the people. Even though you may not be able to embrace this revision I hope that you will be able to accept it.

 

[Zur]

Off topic:

I hate to say this, but IMHO, many of the issues raised by Rain haven't even been addressed yet. This is part of the reason why I laid low through the "defensive" wars against Greece onward. (Anyway they attacked us first, right?)

 

[disorganizer]

which ones? now its time to discuss them without interrupting the game!

i am too lazy to look thru the posts again, but i also remember many things never been addressed or discussed down without voting (i also remember just giving up on my behalf on some issues).

 

[Shaitan]

Here's the post in question:

Originally posted by Rain
I hereby submit my resignation from my position and from this game.

The level of hypocrisy, bureaucracy and general chaos fails to make it either enjoyable or interesting.

I hate to speak ill of the departed but I'm going to anyway. This is essentially an overly generalized whine. The hypocrisy in question was because donsig wasn't turned slowly over a barbeque pit in PI6. She never actually pointed out any bureaucracy or chaos so I have no idea what she meant there and I take them as hyperbole. At the most basic level she didn't get what she wanted so threw a fit.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Shaitan
donsig, I know you don't agree with this proposal but take a look at the results. 80% approval in this Congressional poll. The Senatorial poll is 100% approval. This is definitely the will of the people. You've always been an outspoken proponent of following the will of the people. Even though you may not be able to embrace this revision I hope that you will be able to accept it.

Shaitan, this is just like the passage of the CoL and CoS in the first place. There are only a handful of us who even debated the CoL. We all got tired of talking about the darn rules and stayed away from the discussion thread for a few days. You took that to mean there was no more to talk about, posted a poll and the next thing we now the thing is enacted. When disorganizer, Cyc and myself came out and said we hadn't even read the CoL bells and whistles should have gone off and you should have realized that you are moving the rule making process along too fast.

Sure, the Senate has approved this measure. Why? I don't know. Of the seven Senators voting, only two posted in the discusion thread (one post each.) I have asked (twice now) why they voted yes. I await their response. I seriously doubt they realize the ramifications of thier vote. Throughout Phoenatica's history just about every cabinet vote has passed. One or two did not pass after I used the veto in term three. Those died due to lack of interest and possibly the threat of more vetos. The point is that once a proposal reaches the council/senate vote it has acheived a level where it is assumed the proposal is good becasue it has gotten that far. I would venture the same goes (to a lesser extent) for polls.

Only twelve citizens posted in the discussion thread on this issue and only 8 made more than one post. It is too bad we have no way of knowing how many citizens have read that thread.

 

[Shaitan]

On second thought, I think I know what the bureaucracy was. Eyrie forced her to do her job under threat of a PI.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Shaitan
On second thought, I think I know what the bureaucracy was. Eyrie forced her to do her job under threat of a PI.

But if you boil it all down, the whole, veto investigation, the Rain investigion and PI#6 were all a result of having poor rules. We just do not want to accept that fact as a whole and rather than simplify and streamline the rules we have made them even more poderous while we at the same time trying to make them even eaiser to change.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by donsig
But if you boil it all down, the whole, veto investigation, the Rain investigion and PI#6 were all a result of having poor rules. We just do not want to accept that fact as a whole and rather than simplify and streamline the rules we have made them even more poderous while we at the same time trying to make them even eaiser to change.

You've got a much nicer view of the whole thing than I do. I saw it as a massive group hissy fit when you didn't do as instructed by certain individuals.

 

[Shaitan]

This poll has been up for over 48 hours and has reached the quorum of 26 votes. The proposal is passed and the poll is closed.

EDIT: Ignore that. The poll is still open. 26 YES or NO votes are required, not 26 total votes.

 

[disorganizer]

?!? isnt 26 the qourum?!?

 

[Almightyjosh]

There is no desperate need for senatros to post on this issue. If you look at the thread, there was very little left to say. It had come down to yes, this is a good idea and no, it isn't. There was no need for further debate, the REASONS for approving this poll are, I would have thought, relatively straightfoward. The Governors have unanimously endorsed this poll, even the ones who are very well informed of the law and the implications of this change (he said in a thankyou-very-much tone of voice),

 

[Shaitan]

@ disorganizer - 26 is the quorum for most polls. This would be a change to the Constitution though so it has a higher criteria. This poll must achieve 26 approving votes (a majority of ALL citizens) in order to pass.

 

[disorganizer]

ok. i didnt see this one in the cons yet ;-)
i propably missed it.

 

[Cyc]

Right now we are starting to get into the area of game play that Rain had trouble with. Rain got out very politely and with a lot of class. She could have gotten down to brass tacks about the absurdness this forum can lead to.

I believe the bureaucracy Rain was speaking of was the way everyone was running around bumping into each other, pointing in this direction and that because they had the answer to solve the problem. We all had words falling from our mouths but no one was saying anything.

I believe the hypocrisy was everyone talking about the good of the game when actually they were looking after self-interest.

There were some bad rules back then Donsig. And there were some bad methods for obtaining a sense of justice. We have worked extensively in both areas. This measure is a correction to that work. The error that this correction addresses was put in place because of an openess to the rule making (that's an idea that you seem to oppose), that allowed people like you to have a voice in the decision making. Well, we listened to you, and the idea doesn't work. Now it's time for a change, and the people agree.

One other thing that made Rain feel the way she did was the crooked, unaccountable voting procedures that permeate almost every important poll (specifically PI's and Presidential) we have. Don't even get me started here. I can talk about this for days. Rain had her reasons, and in most cases, she was right as rain.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Cyc - what solutions to the voting issue would you propose? The open ballot option? DoM's investigation was not able to show any fraud in the voting, though he also had few tools if any to do any such investigation. I do agree this is an area we all need to reach consensus.

As to Rain's "dignity and class", I am afraid we part ways here, as there was a significant amound of hypocracy in those days of PI6, and she was frankly knee deep in it herself.

Bill

 

[Octavian X]

The above discussion is what I like to call, 'A bunch of old guys on a porch.' They talk about things I know nothing of from the past. This can go on for days, until somebody like me says something. Oh well...

 

[Cyc]

Bill, if I had an answer to this social club circus that sometimes rules our polls, I would have spouted it long ago. I have noted that I'm usually the lone ranger on this subject, and frankly I'm tired of fighting for every inch of ground I can gain on it. I don't see a conclusive answer at this point.

And I didn't say Rain posessed dignity and class (if you want to re-read my post), I said she left with politeness and class. Even if she was as knee-deep as you during the PI, doesn't mean that she couldn't exit the forums in a polite manner.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by Octavian X
The above discussion is what I like to call, 'A bunch of old guys on a porch.' They talk about things I know nothing of from the past. This can go on for days, until somebody like me says something. Oh well...

[old guy voice]Bloody whippersnappers! In MY day you didn't hear some doughnut god running around talking about old people, that's for sure! Where's my Depends?[/old guy voice]

The time in question was Public Investigation #6. It was a traumatic time in our development and polarized the community. It ended with a whimper instead of a bang. We've pretty much been able to rebuild our community bridges but a lot of them are just ropes and boards so it's easy to shake people off of them when the need arises.