City Proposal Thread

[Provolution]

This thread is placed here in order to create a streamlined, fast, fair and transparent City localization debate leading up to the polling.

City Proposals should include:

A Printscreen with the marked borders and placement of the planned city
Breakdown of tiles by food, gold, shields and resources unsettled
Projection for irrigation, mines, roads and land development
Optional Projection for capacity under another government

The tile analysis should minimum cover 6 tiles, but optionally 12 and 17 tiles.

It is also optional to define the use of this city for the various departments, the Presidency, the Province Governor, the Official Cartographer and the Judiciary. These 10 institutions will collectively grade this 0-50.

Each of these, except for the Official Cartographer, will give 0-5 points each based on the projected tile values, the more effort put into presenting the future tile value, the more points.
Each of these will also consider the Citys role for their department, also given 0-5 points. The Domestic Minister gets a double vote of 10 points on the role of the city. This role will represent yet another 50 points collectively.
In total a city proposal will be ranked 0-100 points based on the total value.

Finally, the Domestic Minister will present the two most attractive options, decided by the Domestic Minister, and poll these with a public poll.


The Processing time of a city proposal is 24 hours for grading and comments, publicly presented in this thread, and then the Domestic Minister sets up the two most promising options for a public poll concluded in advance of the turnchat. The total processing time will be less than three days.

 

[Noldodan]

Well, let's see if this proposal works... CITIZENS! Alas, we do not have sufficient time for this proposal to go in action before this coming turnchat, but we shall certainly have enough time after. I invite you to post any city proposals you may have then, so we can see if this proposal can carry its own weight.

 

[blackheart]

Plop a city NW of where the warrior is. I don't have Civ on this computer and I don't know how good this site will be, but at least we won't waste any tile space.

 

[Black_Hole]

Let me give this a shot...

Proposal #1 for Second City Site

The black circle is where we should she place the city, the blue line is the originial city boundary and once we get enough culture the red line shows that.

We have:
3 Grassland
1 Hill
4 Desert
1 Possible Grassland

I would suggest first mining the grassland to NE and then building a road. This city would then be able to produce military while our capital pumps settlers. Once we expand our cities will culuture lines will be touching making these cities very nice.

A zoomed out map can be found here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=95906

 

[Cyc]

I still believe we should send our Settler 3 tiles to the South and plant him on that hill. Build a Warrior there follwed by a Temple and you not only expand borders to include the Diamond, but you establish early Culture. With the surrounding tiles, Settler production is very possible. One thing that is also important is that is will not interfere with Fanatikku's growth/production for a long time (if at all), plus there will be no shield loss as the city will be so close to the Capital (at least until much later in the game). It establishes early growth, early culture, secures a diamond, will have unbeatable production (except for the capital), will take advantage of all the surrounding tiles, and establishes us in the South. We can go for the other diamonds with a city to the south of that.
__________________

Correction: The tile N, NE of the city should read 2+1+1.

 

[Provolution]

Gentlemen

Excellent, I am proud you ! Hooray (first interjection I came with this game)

I think this is the way to present city options, and both are good ones. Now it is easier to
vote for these in a poll, and I admit Cyc, we should poll alternatives in this one, but we leave it to the Domestic Minister to present the poll he see fit. You are right Cyc, two options would restrict democracy, but now people can really compare. Good job.

Balck_hole I am sorry I had a very direct tone in my debates, I could in retrospect have been more mild and indirect in my message. But right now, you have proven all sceptics wrong and added a lot of quality to the game, made it accessible to new people that wants to get in.

So right now, IMO, this seems to go the right way for all of us!

 

[Provolution]

Foreign Affairs Review of Blackholes Proposal 1.

Tilevalue Review.
Since the tilevalues are not written down I do it as a favor to the proposal and for people to compare, but deduct one point for that.

6 fields within the external cultural border are not explored yet. One deduct.

6 tiles
RAW 9 food, 5 sheilds
DEV 9 foods, 10 shields, 6 roads commerce
MON no bonuses

12 tiles
RAW 16 food, 12 shields
DEV 18 food, 15 shields, 12 roads commerce
MON 19 food

Based on the fact that the city area is not fully mapped, and no tile values provided, limited amount of guaranteed foods , I would grade tile value of alternative:

2 Points for Tile Values

The Foreign Affairs Ministy agrees that the idea of making the southern city a specialized military production center makes sense given the high settler production of Fanatikku. Since this proposal represents neither a poor solution or a specifically good solution but a sound solution, the Foreign Affairs Ministry will grade this option:

3 points for national interest of foreign affaits, we need to explore more.

Total Grade from the Foreign Affairs Ministry, 5 points.

 

[blackheart]

And here is a map of the above said city site.

 

[Provolution]

Foreign Affairs Review of Cycs Proposal 2.

Tilevalue Review.
All tilevalues are accounted for within the city, not summed up, but it will be done here.

6 fields within the external cultural border are not explored yet. One deduct.

6 best tiles
RAW 7 food, 6 shields
DEV 7 foods, 11 shields, 6 roads commerce
MON no bonuses

12 best tiles
RAW 13 food, 12 shields, 4 commerce
DEV 13 food, 20 shields, 12 roads commerce, plus 4 commerce
MON, potentially plus 2 food , to 15, plus 1 commerce

Mediocre food production , but excellent site for producing wonders, improvements and units, defensible terrain is plus 50 % building on a hill. The Gem will provide luxury to
our cities relatively fast, so we do not need to trade right away, plus culture may increase in time to add the 3 other gems for international trade later on when that is appropriate. The City also has some sort of being a production center for settlers.

3.5 Points for Tile Values, 3.5 Points for national interest (Gem and Built on hill)

The Foreign Affairs Ministry Grades this City at 7 points, given circumstances.

 

[Provolution]

Blackheart, you are in, good job and choice of location but it would be nice if you wrote down tilevalues for the best 6 and 12 tiles. and if you had any special strategic thoughts for the city, please share them

 

[Provolution]

Blackheart Proposal 3, Foreign Affairs Review

Tilevalue, 2.5, for bringing in two luxuries, but minus for not adding tilevalues, and minus for the absolute scarcity of food in the said location.
National Interest Value: 4, we get a bargaining chip both for the FA and the Trade Department right away, as we get two gems with this solution.

Foreign Affairs Grade, 6.5 points.

Still I hope proposals will include tilevaiues 6-12 best tiles in the future.

 

[Black_Hole]

Provulation: I dont believe that jus because i forgot to put the values on the map(I will do this next time), that the city site is worse and should lose a "point"
next time i will also add them up and remeber to turn my grid on...

 

[Provolution]

It lost only 0.5 points. the one thing that makes proposal 2 equally good normally, is that it has more food access. Your proposal wins with economy of tiles, so no tiles are wasted, plus that you get an extra diamond. In fact, with added tile values, this may be the best option, in terms of maximizing tile usage in terms of overlap and luxuries.

You do not have to write the values on the mpa, you can write them in a text

Ok, since this is a pilot run of the system, you may write down he tile values, but I can also see that your hill may have a harbor, which means the food supply will be covered from the sea at one stage. So it is not a bad solution.

Please add the tile values and write some words, a couple of lines on that

 

[Epimethius]

I refuse to participate in this horrific and unecessary beauracracy. Especially since it is no way approved by the people in the first place, and thus has no legal explanation for existing, being carried out (by the foreign affairs department, no less), and has no validity for being used in the MDA's instructions. This isn't streamlined or fast. And since I doubt many citizens are going to read all that ****, it isn't fair either.

Not to mention that this isn't even your job. If the Domestic Ministry feels we need a horrifically complex and boring method of voting for city sites, we can come up with our own.

 

[Provolution]

Well Epimethius, it is good to know where you stand. I do not know where your hostility comes from, but it will not go unnoticed.

 

[Noldodan]

I refuse to participate in this horrific and unecessary beauracracy. Especially since it is no way approved by the people in the first place, and thus has no legal explanation for existing, being carried out (by the foreign affairs department, no less), and has no validity for being used in the MDA's instructions. This isn't streamlined or fast. And since I doubt many citizens are going to read all that ****, it isn't fair either.

Not to mention that this isn't even your job. If the Domestic Ministry feels we need a horrifically complex and boring method of voting for city sites, we can come up with our own.

Points to make in reply: 1) Actually, any Citizen is within his rights to attempt something like this. Now, there is one point to make there though: I don't have to follow the advice presented in this model unless it is actually polled.

2) You say it's not streamlined or fast (like I did, and I still believe that, but just to be contrary...) but it could work fast enough. Let's try it, and see what happens.

3) Seeing as my method is taking a good bit of flak (mostly concerning putting the correct options in), maybe we should try something new.

PS: I'm not responding to any proposals until after tomorrow's chat, the reason being that there is NO time to go through with the process before the chat.

 

[Provolution]

I have read historical threads from when Noldodan was a governor, and he did an excellent job in these 10 terms, that is why I voted for him to transfer the experiences into the Domestic Minister role. I can see that Epithemius is still campaigning with his signature unchanged, and that he now attacks the proposal with such a ferocity and scorn, I consider nothing but a mere extension of that election campaign. I have done nothing to harm him, but recognize that my candid support has been observed.

Yet, having some real life experience with decisionmaking by volumes, scorecard benchmarking is one of the very fastest ways to integrate many decisions and factors into on final decision for polling. Companies has made millions and billions of USD through changing to this managerial system. It is not slow and boring as such, as we now may compare cities in the same format. New citizens unused to present their case, will have a secure format to work from. A map, tilevalues, city role and a grade is all there is, and then the poll.

If the refusal to participate in this new attempt for the common good is of personal and political nature, I see no other recourse than to reciprocate it politely.

Thank you Noldodan for your open-mindedness

 

[Black_Hole]

this is not an attempt at beucracy epimethius... it is an attempt to have a more organized system and I believe it is worth a shot, if it doesnt work so be it... but at least we tried

 

[superpelon]

Could i make a suggestion??

Make the requirements a BIT less extensive... i mean, most posters on this forum know the Food/Trade/Shield values of the terrain in question. As for projected mining and irrigation, thats a more personal choice. Some prefer to irrigate some terrain, others prefer to mine it (Wheat in Grasslands, Flood Plains). Roads and RR are most likely to be put in all squares.

The city output under various goverments is also a bit too much, IMHO... A good settler factory under despotism is a great settler factory under republic.

Overall, this is a good idea, if we can simplify it a bit.

 

[Provolution]

I agreee superpelon

, we have already simplified it down to basic tiles 6-12, as that is the two sizes we can reach with aqueduct/river in term 1. But still, feel free to add more info to make a stronger case. We have made some changes in the requirements, government and irrigation is not any longer required, but optional. You see that some people make long essays on some proposals, where some people just spit out a tile location.

About land development, is is not a requirement, but really skilled people with surplus energy should not be deterred from making a stronger case on tile usage.
Read the Governor thread, and Falcon02 came up with a great detailed idea.
I know that in any system it is the smallest denonimnator that decides, but we badly need a standardized and fair procedure. Point well taken Superpelon.

Basic Requirements:

Screenshot of new site
Best 6 tiles
Best 12 tiles.

optional 3-5 lines with personal ideas on why the proposal is good/better.
I think any human being with basic PC skills can do this