Civ 3 Tournament Proposal

Are these games going to be posted for anyone to play like the GOTM? I usually grab the GOTM and try it no matter what the level. Sometimes with success others not so much. I don't usually turn my games in.

I guess my question is would you or anyone else object to other players playing "for fun" rather than Competition without signing up? Usually I play Warlord or Regent.



Hotrod
 
Yeah you could download and play the game without submit it. But I rather have you joining the competition. The more players the merrier!

Three more players has joined!

Veteran
- Tormund
- charliehoke

Regular
- Natrak
 
Pearman, I had read the whole thread. (TBH, I hadn't picked up that Aeson's "proposed scoring system" was the accepted scoring system though). But my point still stands that the divisions at present will lead to games against an uncompetitive AI. 33% of people will [eventually] be in the lower division. I don't think 33% of the people here find the AI a real challenge on Warlord and Chieftain!

Maybe I'm alone in that I much prefer playing Civ3 against an AI that is a challenge -- maybe I'm alone in preferring a game where my nation is really having a tussle to get ahead of the other nations and ( :eek: ) might not get a victory every game? I really didn't think I would be alone in that, though. :confused:

"I'm sorry, you took all the way til 15000AD to conquer the world, everyone else did it by 1350. You get relegated to a lower division" doesn't sound like that tussle to me.

Which is why I bring it up before the start of the tournament, rather than risk seeming a sour-goose by keeping quiet and only mentioning it if I were relegated. ;)
 
Most people are entering Veteran (myself included), with a fair few in Regular, and only a few in Elite. How would everyone feel about having promotion / relegation percentages which keep that balance?

As an example...

Elite: bottom 1/4 relegated
Vet: top 1/8 promoted; bottom 1/8 relegated
Reg: top 1/4 promoted

...would cause the tournament to come to a balance where 25% of competitors are in Elite, 50% in Vet, and 25% in Reg. We could tune those percentages to get the equilibrium sizes for the divisions to match the proportion of people entering each division.

(If we changed vet to bottom 1/6 relegated in the example, the current division sizes would be fairly stable. We'd have Elite: 23% Vet: 46% Reg: 31%)

:)

whb
 
What good does it do to have these divisions in the first place? I can only presume that those in favor of this idea are also in favor of grading on a curve -- it's that ridiculous. Grades will be handed out based not on absolute performance, but on position in the scoring relative to other participants.

To arbitrarily "decide" that 1/4th of all players in Bracket A will be "demoted" to Bracket B after the competition might please the controlling personality, but what does it have to do with the results? It's a random guess, and likely to be wrong. Perhaps none of the players warrant "demotion", and perhaps most of them will. Deciding that before the games are played...? :lol:


A competition also implies comparing results from different players playing the same game. If folks are playing at different difficulty levels, they are not playing the same game. It's not quite as bad as playing chess in Bracket A, football in Bracket B, and Barbie's Dream House in Bracket C, but still, it's not the same game. If you want to even out odds of winning based on skill or lack thereof, some kind of handicap system akin to that in golf might work, but even then... the data samples available will probably be too small to get that cute.


I think Aeson's scoring system is a noble attempt to improve on the flawed and exploitable one in the game, and at first glance it seems to be making progress. Just the idea that the system can be "milked" at all for more score after the game is effectively over is problematic. Yeah yeah, that's a "talent in its own right" but I thought this was aimed at eliminating that? Or can it not be eliminated?

I like the idea of competition. This one looks like it has some good things going for it, but I don't think it's quite refined enough to catch my interest. I'll try to explain why.

The gameplay itself is rife with luck in ancient combat, and the smaller the map, the more so the luck. Warrior Gambit is just the tip of that iceberg, and I haven't seen reports from gamblers showing a failure rate that matches with the odds on the risks many of them are taking, so... that starts to wander off into other issues besides game play that are distinctly not fun to take on. But even presuming a perfect level of integrity among all players for the sake of argument (no cheating), for THAT MUCH luck to be involved, the results blur beyond a meaningful margin of error on a sample this small. Even four games and even with an improved scoring system that weighs results more carefully, if games are turning based on combat in the first 3000 years, with warriors and archers especially, or a small number of horses/swords, the same four players could do the same exact things with the same units, one turn apart, pulling different seeds out of the RNG, and come up with wholly different results. Of what value then would those results be? You could have a contest just as meaningful by having the players sit down, throw dice, and declare the luckiest ones the winners.

Even if the game objectives won't allow for gambit moves to "win", they still have a huge impact. The civ that takes over the capital of a close neighbor with a military gambit in 2000BC is leaps ahead of the civ who waits to have the forces for a more sure victory. The smaller the map and the closer your nearest neighbors, the more luck-based the results are going to be, regardless of any controls in place to try to work around that.

"Four Small Maps So We Can Get More Games In" sounds cool, but you're trading quality for quantity. I know Grey Fox likes to use gambits and exploits -- I've seen him mention it numerous times, and I've not read all that many threads -- so this arrangement caters fairly well to his playstyle. Maybe a little too well? Not implying anything sinister, but from over here the conditions and details of the contest look biased to me. The "earliest finish" is very heavily weighted and that, too, sounds good. But then the pressure is on the player to forego playing it safe and take more and more risks for high rewards, because that is how to dramatically speed your results. Then we're back to the Luck Factor, which is actually magnified, not minimized, by all the conditions and rules I'm seeing. Ah but wait, there are four games to score, so that should weed out those who take too great of risks, right? They might get lucky once, or twice, but four times? Well... you would have a point there. But with the contest being THAT MUCH based on luck, and the luck easy to "fix" in any number of ways, not all legitimate to the spirit and/or rules of the contest... we're also then back to the question of whether players will honor all of those rules.

It's that blur factor that has left me disinterested in the GOTM. The game itself rightly deserves most, if not all, of the blame for that. The combat system in ancient times allows for that much luck to enter in, and that's the fault of the designers. But... there could be ways to minimize that. IMO this concept seems to be heading in the exact opposite direction, toward maximizing it.

Thoughts? Comments?


- Sirian
 
sirian--- amen brother, you hit the nail on the head. I said back on page 1 or 2 where are the bigger maps. The smaller maps favor the gambit players as opposed to the builder mentality. The response i get is "well it would take too long" Too long???? Huge maps/ 16 civs dont take 2 weeks unless you micromanage to death on milking the score for a 2050 win.
The bigger maps do wonders to eliminate warrior/ swordsman/ horseman gambits. I dont know how the bigger ones stack up against aesons ics but i would imagine that it would just cause his game to take longer with the inevitable result.
Do any of us look at playing on tiny or small maps as a challenge? IMHO if you are looking for a challenge,,, bigger map more civs is always more challenging than smaller/fewer.1 or 2 quality games is invariably more fun than 4 ho-hum games. Quantity never is better than quality when it comes to games. Just look at the game your playing; if Firaxis/Infogrames hadnt worried about the quantity of games to be sold at christmas, the quality of the game at release could have been much better
 
I am in for the Veteran level, have to learn however how to play the smaller map sizes, but that is considered to be a new challenge!

And I am a strong advocate of using large maps as well, probably not every season and with three games to play instead of four.
 
Instead og playing four maps, 1 tiny 2 small and 1 standard, we could play 1 small 1 standard and 1 large map. It's just an idea. :)


BTW: I would like to join the turnament, in the veteran division.:D
 
I'm not very good at scoring systems and such but since there is some debate about moving up and down in the divisions I might as well add my two cents:

Who's to say that those who end up lowest in a division will be worse than those who are in the top of the next lowest division? Seems to me there should be a more objective criteria for moving up or down a division. What the criteria would be I haven't a clue. Any ideas?
 
Just the idea that the system can be "milked" at all for more score after the game is effectively over is problematic. Yeah yeah, that's a "talent in its own right" but I thought this was aimed at eliminating that? Or can it not be eliminated?

If you look at the examples of the scoring system applied to GOTM05 results, it seems to leave the milked games slightly behind. The idea is that if you can get as good or slight better a % early on, no one would waste the hours and hours milking. If the GOTM05 scoring examples are any indiction, it is pretty close on that account. If in practice it doesn't achieve that, then the map size modifiers will just have to be adjusted.

As I stated in my posts about the scoring system, I'm more familiar with larger maps. Any input on the map size modifiers is welcome.

I like the idea of competition. This one looks like it has some good things going for it, but I don't think it's quite refined enough to catch my interest.

The tournament isn't yet started, and isn't yet set in stone. New ideas are welcome. :)

The gameplay itself is rife with luck in ancient combat, and the smaller the map, the more so the luck.

This is a problem with Civ III regardless of map size. You say the opening is the most important, and you're right. The opening on a large map is just important, and you are stuck with that luck for the rest of the game. If we played 2 larger maps instead of 4 smaller ones, luck becomes even more of a determining factor.

Also large maps are even more dependant on the opening. This is because of the geometric acceleration of expansion. An early outcome (positive or negative) will double in value every 15-25 turns until the expansion phase is over. On a small map this will happen just once or twice. On a huge map it can happen 8+ times. The difference between 2^2 and 2^8 is extreme.

The civ that takes over the capital of a close neighbor with a military gambit in 2000BC is leaps ahead of the civ who waits to have the forces for a more sure victory.

Consider your example. At 1990BC on a small map, there won't be room for much more expansion peacefully. The player adds 1 city to their territory. That city may add 1 or 2 more cities to expansion if there is still any room.

At 1990BC on a huge map, there will still be vast tracts of land unclaimed. The player adds 1 city to their expansion. By 500AD 121 more turns have passed. That is enough time for 6-8 doublings if taken advantage of properly. 32-128 more cities!

500AD is my estimate for an 'average' time when a huge map will be filled up. Difficulty level, landform, available food, number of civs, and water level all would modify that date of course.

Even if the game objectives won't allow for gambit moves to "win", they still have a huge impact.

It depends on the victory condition. I feel the ability to properly weigh risk vs. reward in the early game is a skill. In 4 games someone who risks too much will most likely fail more often than not. Someone who hedges their bets a little might not have as much 'max' potential, but will more likely do well consistantly.

Not every victory condition will reward these military openings either. Fastest Launch would require that you help the AI, not hinder them. Sure a bit of warfare will still be needed to procure leaders and enough territory to operate in, but it won't be the only aspect of the game.

You could have a contest just as meaningful by having the players sit down, throw dice, and declare the luckiest ones the winners.

I'm sure we can all agree there is more to Civ III than that. There will always be luck involved in games, that is what makes it a game. It's part of the enjoyment of playing. My siblings and I often play dice games. They would be terribly boring if we could all chose what numbers would come up though, wouldn't you think?

Hopefully the participants can view this tournament as a fun way of comparing results. Those who can view it in this manner will have an enjoyable experience regardless of the outcomes. Those who 'must win' and cheat to do so will only set themselves up for disappointment if they happen to be beaten (most likely with SirPleb competing :lol: )!

we're also then back to the question of whether players will honor all of those rules.

Short of having a tournament where each player is present with judges monitoring gameplay, there just is no way to completely eliminate the potential for cheating. We just have to trust in the sportsmanship of all participants in order to have a functional tournament.

Some of the changes in 1.21f should help alieviate the potential damage of cheating. The multi.sav feature is removed, and save games have their rules included, so mods won't be readily useable.

But... there could be ways to minimize that.

Like has been stated before, suggestions are still welcome.
 
I'm in, Veteran level.

Good scoring system, Aeson. I like it. After adjusting it due to the the new map sizes, I think it's well balanced. [EDIT: duh, they are large and huge only and dont matter...]

As to the number of players to change... 25% is pretty much, I'd suggest to reduce this, somewhere between 10% and 20% will be fine. Say, 1/6...1/8. Or what about 1/7? Makes rounding easier. If there are 25 players in the vet division, 25/7=3.57.. ~ 4, so 4 people would move up, 4 down and 17 stay.
 
To put it plain simple: if you play in a tournament with multiple divisions just accept that there is a promotion / demotion system IMHO.

What I read quite often here is that demotions always take place based on whatever criteria and that promotions coul be voluntary. IMHO the top division will never be populated in that way and regular and veteran divisions will see "division-milkers".

In order to avoid that participants who are in the position to promote get a choice. Either accept promotion or get a scoring handicap for the next season. The handicap could be either a deduction of a fixed number of points or a proportional handicap like a 0.n score multiplier.

How about this idea and eh, Aeson I think you are pretty good with the numeric part of the scoring system, do you have a suggestion how this could work out?
 
What's the idea of having promotions/demotions, when you can choose in which division to start.
If people choose the veteran division its because they want to play regent/monarch games, then they dont want to be promoted or demoted. :confused:
 
Sadly, I won't have time to play in this tournament. But I think it is a great idea and would if I could!

With all the discussion about being relegated and promoted, I thought I'd throw my two cents in as well: its a TOURNAMENT! To me, moving up or down dependent on performance makes the competition more fun and exciting. Players know best where they should start but if you are successful in the division you start in you should move up to a higher level of competition. Same goes if you need to move down.

I just keep thinking of it as being kind of like the English soccer leagues, except for CIVIII. :D

However, 50% of players shifting up or down from the Vetern division does seem like a lot. Perhaps that needs to be tweeked depending on how many people are in the tournament.

There's my input, you guys have fun!

Great idea Grey Fox! :goodjob:
 
The man definately has a point there. Hey if we are gonna be forced to promote/demote why should we choose what division we are in.
Logic says that we playthe first tournie at a medium level, monarch as a suggestion as its difficult enough to weed elite/not so elite. Highest 20% elite, middle 60 in middle divison, lowest 20% in the easiest.Imade the middle 60% due to it seems to be the median. ie if you arent better than 80% of the people you arent elite and the same on the other end.That plus the idea of Aeson or Sirpleb being in the middle division would not be pleasent , at least for me:D .
Consistancy seems to be the issue though on this debate. Either seed everything(prom/dem and divisions), or make it at the players discretion.

In the long run it really makes no difference to me, as I will be a middle lvl. resident and be playing regardless of the rules.So i guess im just getting my 2 cents worth (again:p )
 
I just hope it is going ot be clean. How can we disable little cheats , like saving game before every move (attack on city to see whats inside or to see can it take it, war declare, etc) and re load, save, reload etc.
 
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