Civ 5 Combat Guide?

[Prozac1964]

Hey everyone, I'm wondering if there is a nice guide written by someone here maybe, that details Combat. For instance: what are the best military units for destroying a catapult, what are the best units for beating pike man, what destroys knights most efficiently? You get the point hopefully. Has anyone written such a guide? Or know of one?

Thanks for your help.

Oh and Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all.

 

[joncnunn]

There's a very old War Academy article (from Vanilla) dealing with some of the mechanics, but not really dealing with units with advantages over each other.

But as to killing units in the open field most efficiently, that is a double line:

Pre Gatling Guns, that's a line of archery units with a screen of melee units in front.

Starting with Gatling Guns, they are their own screen but to really kill units you place a line of artillery behind them.

 

[leif erikson]

Would this help?

Here is the guide Jon references above.

 

[Prozac1964]

Thanks to both of you for the tips and the guides. I'm gonna try the double line today. Funny thing I've won several dom vics, but I seem to do it in an unorganized pattern. That's why I wanted to learn more about various unit's strengths and weaknesses.

I'll get there.

 

[Eklabiaan]

The Carl's Guide might be what you need.
http://www.carlsguides.com/strategy/civilization5/war/
It deals with war more than with one on one combat, though.

 

[beetle]

The general idea is that melee units just fortify in place while ranged units wear down and kill. Have spare units on hand so you can rotate out wounded units to heal and put new units in place to keep up the momentum.

Funny thing I've won several dom vics, but I seem to do it in an unorganized pattern.

Time to up the difficulty level!

That's why I wanted to learn more about various unit's strengths and weaknesses.

That is one thing I miss from early civs, the rock/paper/stone dynamic. With III and IV you had swords were strong against spear, spear strong against horse, and horse strong against swords.

With V, you have some bonuses, but not the triad. So spear against horseman is strong, but Longsword against Pike and/or Knight is just about even.

Starting with Gatling Guns, they are their own screen but to really kill units you place a line of artillery behind them.

If the AI tech is competitive with your own, while the above works great for killing units, when you get your arty within range of cities, use melee units (with the cover promotion) to screen.

 

[ShakaKhan]

what are the best military units for destroying a catapult, what are the best units for beating pike man, what destroys knights most efficiently?

Spears and pikes get a bonus vs. mounted units (horsemen, knights) and archery units have less melee strength than the other units of the same era (but don't let that fool you, since ranged units take no damage on their attack turn while the melee unit suffers damage while he attacks, the archer will usually win a 1X1 confrontation, particularly if the archer gets to strike first, which it should.)

However, as Beetle noted, CivV is the first game in the series where rock/paper/scissors doesn't apply much. Terrain bonuses, both map-based and promotion-based, combined with multiple flanking bonuses give such a high percentage bonus that you'd rarely hesitate to attack a pikeman with a knight, especially since the ability to move after attacking coupled with double a pikeman's movement points means they can hit and run, allowing sturdier units or ranged units to finish them off. It's less about "this unit counters that unit" and more about:
-quantity
-quality (more advanced units, and specific unique units)
-terrain bonuses (promotions and map-based)
-ranged units get free shots.

 

[Prozac1964]

Thanks everyone...I lost track of this thread..now I have more homework to do

 

[Athenaeum]

There's a very old War Academy article (from Vanilla) dealing with some of the mechanics, but not really dealing with units with advantages over each other.

But as to killing units in the open field most efficiently, that is a double line:

Pre Gatling Guns, that's a line of archery units with a screen of melee units in front.

Starting with Gatling Guns, they are their own screen but to really kill units you place a line of artillery behind them.

Pre-Gatling Guns, what happens when two warring players approach each other with the same setup? The melee screens are adjacent to each other and the archery lines are just shooting at the opposing melee screens. So it just becomes a test to see who has more archery units, and whose melee screens can withstand more ranged attacks, right?

I've thought that perhaps there must be some sort of rock-paper-scissors mechanism, where even the archer-behind-melee tactic has some sort of weakness.

 

[Athenaeum]

If you are defending against swaths of crossbows coming into your territory, I have found it very effective to build lots of roads and use knights in a "yo-yo" fashion, by attacking the invading crossbows and then fleeing back into your territory.

This allows for similar capacity of focus fire that spamming ranged units does. However this implies that there is not a melee/pikeman screen in front of the crossbows. This also usually requires you to be somewhat prepared by having roads built up.

A lot of the time if your territory is covered in rough terrain, it can completely incapacitate an invading opponent if you just park a few melee with rough terrain and ranged defense promotions on a couple of hills with forts. Also build roads on the hill/forts so that you can quickly swap out with a new, fully-healed melee if your current unit is about to die from absorbing too many attacks.

 

[ShakaKhan]

Pre-Gatling Guns, what happens when two warring players approach each other with the same setup? The melee screens are adjacent to each other and the archery lines are just shooting at the opposing melee screens.

I assume you're talking about multiplayer, right? Because regardless of difficulty level, the AI is not smart enough to form their lines like this.

Either way, the stalemate would be broken in one of five ways. Chronologically from earliest to latest:

1.) If one player can sucker another player into moving with a unit or two (maybe a hill blocked their vision and they didn't see the trap) They could end up a few units ahead, and numbers are a deciding factor in stalemates.
2.) First person to get a unit or two with the range promotion has a significant advantage.
3.) Whoever can fire first will have the advantage, so the trapper beats the aggressor. However, if the aggressor can get a tech lead and stronger/more durable units, they can take the initiative and still win.
4.) Similar to #2 and #3, first person to artillery has an advantage.
5.) As above, but aircraft is even more potent.

 

[ShakaKhan]

If you are defending against swaths of crossbows coming into your territory, I have found it very effective to build lots of roads and use knights in a "yo-yo" fashion, by attacking the invading crossbows and then fleeing back into your territory.

Right, except I would bring several knights at a time so they can add flanking bonuses. But again, this applies more to SP or asynchronous MP, and not so much to simultaneous-turned MP

 

[beetle]

So it just becomes a test to see who has more archery units, and whose melee screens can withstand more ranged attacks, right?

As ShakaKhan wrote, it does not come up in SP much. But let’s say you are engaging the AI in open terrain between cities (not the typical encounter): Whoever shoots first gets a significant advantage. Since the player’s ranged unit can move-and-shoot on the same turn, you should be able to take advantage of this. Which is nice since on SP you start wars outnumbered 2:1 (or worse). 1UPT makes the numerical superiority much, much less significant.

I've thought that perhaps there must be some sort of rock-paper-scissors mechanism, where even the archer-behind-melee tactic has some sort of weakness.

Nope, not at all.

If you are defending against swaths of crossbows coming into your territory, I have found it very effective to build lots of roads and use knights in a "yo-yo" fashion, by attacking the invading crossbows and then fleeing back into your territory.

Yes, excellent. This works well through to deity.

However this implies that there is not a melee/pikeman screen in front of the crossbows. This also usually requires you to be somewhat prepared by having roads built up.

It hardly matters, since a healthy knight will not die from attacking a Pike, and that is as uneven as same-era fights get. Yes, you need to have the roads built, and a good number of mounted units. Your tactics are quite sound.

 

[Athenaeum]

It hardly matters, since a healthy knight will not die from attacking a Pike, and that is as uneven as same-era fights get. Yes, you need to have the roads built, and a good number of mounted units. Your tactics are quite sound.

From attacking a pike? Sure it won't die, but the pike will certainly do more damage to the knight. Also if you don't have roads and the knight travels from afar, it might not have enough movement points to retreat back far enough to safety from opponent ranged attacks. That's really what the purpose of having roads is. It is also so that you can concentrate more knight attacks per turn on the same target.

You have to remember that I almost exclusively play multiplayer, so if there's some different conventional wisdom for single player I'm probably not familiar with it.

 

[beetle]

Sure it won't die, but the pike will certainly do more damage to the knight.

That does not matter if your opponent is losing units but you are not. I am thinking about situations where you can hit the pike with 3+ knights and withdraw. The basic tactic is just to outlast.

Also if you don't have roads and the knight travels from afar, it might not have enough movement points to retreat back far enough to safety from opponent ranged attacks.

Understood, and I completely agree with your thinking. Knights attacking pikes is not because you are desperate, it is because you have little risk of losing them. The roads are a must.

You have to remember that I almost exclusively play multiplayer, so if there's some different conventional wisdom for single player I'm probably not familiar with it.

I will try and keep that in mind, and I have no MP experience. But I cannot image how fights near your cities would be much different.

The Deity AI comes at me with hordes of units, usually a mix of obsolete, current era, and advanced. Those units are a bad mix, used poorly, and have no good promotions.

Your opponent will come at you without a horde, but will still try to outnumber you. His units will be of the current era, just like yours. He gets to pick the time and place, so let’s assume a numerical advantage. He will have a clever mix of units, use them well, and have good promotions.

That said, with the roads pre-built, can we not assume you have several units yourself? I think 3 ranged and 2-3 melee can hold off any number of equal-era units. Any mounted you throw in are just gravy. I look forward to people telling me why I am being naïve!