Civ bts - Greek Phalanx Unit

[KrikkitTwo]

How do you figure? When do you heal?

When on the transport

 

[Silence101]

So the new one is more historical than origninal? The oringinal is better and more suitable. The New Spearman has the linen armor as i said, this armor is more tough and used in later periods. The New Phalanx is based on VERY early periods, yet it is stronger. Even if this game wants to emphasis the spartan hoplite as a UU, then atleast they should add the right Hoplon symbol and a red cape.

I was refering more to the unit statistics - not the "look".

And yes, I think the new phalanx is statistically more accurate than the original.

Edit: And on that note, I think which unit is "better" and "more suitable" is still open for debate. I liked the old phalanx, but if you asked me which was more important to the early game... which is the most influencial part of the game, I would say hands down that the new phalanx are in fact better and more suitable.

 

[Wodan]

When on the transport

That's where, not when. So, you leave your troops idle for 1+ turns to heal? Without march, that's what you have to do.

Wodan

 

[KrikkitTwo]

If you are Moving on a Transport, you heal (because you count as not taking any action, the Transport did the move action, not you)

 

[Supr49er]

That's where, not when. So, you leave your troops idle for 1+ turns to heal? Without march, that's what you have to do.

Wodan

Maybe he's got medic III transports?

 

[Wodan]

A unit does not count as moving if the transport is it on moves.

But this assumes the transport is taking more than 2 turns to move to the new city to be assaulted. Turn 1: marines get on board, transport moves. Turn 2, transport moves, marines attack.

There's no opportunity there for the Marines to heal, unless they have March.

Wodan

 

[peter450]

What makes march useful is that in a stack with a healer, the march units can all attack an be healed by the begining of the next turn so long as the damage taken was not to big, thats not a bonus to be sniffed at and means attacks carry far more momentum.

However i personally think the Seal should have commando over march is it better reflects what seals are

 

[peter450]

^
nod
A unit does not count as moving if the transport is it on moves.

But back to the phalanx debate, I realise that my previous idea was unbalanced, but I also think that the new phalanx is a boring unit for the same reason. If playing as greece, then there's no point in buiding anything but phalanxes (untill HA or cats turn up), and if your playing against them then theirs no reason to build anything other than axes, as thats the only think that stands a chance of beating them.

I do, however, like the idea of giving them a free formation promotion, but I think that thats a little weak and a little unrealistic. For a start they can beat horse archers but not chariots. Very odd. Perhaps a free shock promotion would be better. This would make them the best melee unit in the game, but still vulnerable to chariots. Also after two promotions the phalanx would only have +10% against an enemy axe (combat 1 + combat 2 + free schock as opposed to combat 1 + shock). This makes them strong, but not unbeatable and fun to use.

Shock would make them to tough at the start since chariots only counter axes on the attack, a stack of such units could keep safe with a spear or too an sticking to wooded terrain, while attacking you would have such a big advantage as chariots have no bonus defending and enemy axemen would no longer counter due to the 25% advantage.

Simply adding formation at horseback riding would leave the early mechanic's unchanged while giving the unit a small edge vs the later horse archer, an thus addressing everyones complaint that the unit's bonus is to quickly obsoleted

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

What makes march useful is that in a stack with a healer, the march units can all attack an be healed by the begining of the next turn so long as the damage taken was not to big, thats not a bonus to be sniffed at and means attacks carry far more momentum.

However i personally think the Seal should have commando over march is it better reflects what seals are

That is the heart of my point, peter450. Thnx for putting it so well into text! March may not be useless, but 4 out of 5 times, my marines are barely damaged at all after the assault. There's only 1 in the besieged city after the invasion so I'll put my defenders in, fly another 1 in from a homeland (ha!) city and the rest of my crew heals while moving to the next port city.

With commando, I would load a few more SEALS onto the city with some tanks, and roll to an inland city while also moving my naval units to the next port city. That is a strong UU right there. But to each his own.

 

[mboettcher]

I don't have a problem with the Gallic Warrior. Promoting along the Guerrilla line is awesome for making medic units that are unstoppable on hill positions. These guys can eventually be upgraded to machine guns. Having 3 Guerrilla III, Combat I machineguns on a hill guarding your stack of rifle/grenadier/cannon is completely OP (even if the AI has infantry!) It's just as good as promoting down the drill line just in a different way.

I think your thinking of Woodsman for healing units but yes guerilla III is very strong with the the 50% withdrawal chance and the hill combat. Plus the AI has a nasty habit of building cities on hills and this helps.

Also I don't see the advantage of drill line by itself. It seems to be mostly a support promotion to increase the powers of other promos (other than the reduced collateral)

 

[mboettcher]

yatzee again! I really wish someone could make a valid and complete case against a particular UU. I can make a fair case against the Navy SEAL, but I'm sure other people can provide situations (common and rare) that the SEAL is a great UU. Basically, I feel like the Navy SEAL is barely an improvement over the regular marine unit. So they have 1-2 first strikes? big deal. IMHO, I don't send my marines in until my fighters and or artillery has sufficiently ruined the coastal city's defenders. March isn't that great for this unit, either, since I rarely move marines around anyway (besides from transport to city )

To make the SEAL a solid late game UU, they should start with commando. That's it. No first strikes, no march, just commando. I would so use SEALS then.

march is useful for advancing quickly but other than that... its no panzer and is way out-classed by mech infantry and even infantry have +25% against gunpowder (making it 25 compared to 24 and 1-2 fs) so maybe seals should get the +25% too?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I think your thinking of Woodsman for healing units but yes guerilla III is very strong with the the 50% withdrawal chance and the hill combat. Plus the AI has a nasty habit of building cities on hills and this helps.

Also I don't see the advantage of drill line by itself. It seems to be mostly a support promotion to increase the powers of other promos (other than the reduced collateral)

The drill line is amazing for units like Machine guns that really don't have a good counter until Industrialism. The best an AI that doesn't have Industrialism can do is send in suicide siege units by the masses. In my current game, I have a load of machine guns that have Drill I/II/III/IV and they are unstoppable. Even after the AI sends in 4 or 5 suicide units, my Drill IV machine gun is practically full strength, and the cruissiers (sp?) it sent in after died quite easily.

The drill line of promotion is also perfect if you have a tech lead on your opponent. A fortified infantry in a city with Drill I/II/III will be able to kill off three or four riflemen before the next defender becomes the stronger one.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

march is useful for advancing quickly but other than that... its no panzer and is way out-classed by mech infantry and even infantry have +25% against gunpowder (making it 25 compared to 24 and 1-2 fs) so maybe seals should get the +25% too?

Take away the 1 - 2 FS, take away the March, and give 'em Commando. It's more realistic, and would make for a great UU. Not overpowered, but much more useful.

 

[mboettcher]

The drill line of promotion is also perfect if you have a tech lead on your opponent. A fortified infantry in a city with Drill I/II/III will be able to kill off three or four riflemen before the next defender becomes the stronger one.

Thats most definitely true when you have a tech lead. Drill always reduces dmg in victories but I don't think that its much of an advantage when it works best when you are already stronger if you know what I'm saying. Anyway I love the drill line and use it a lot, especially with GG who I raise as axemen with City raider and +25% siege into rifles with Drill IV. Its not even fair. I played a marathon game and my first GG got to infantry with 500xp (on a charismatic leader). He had a >99% chance against modern armor.


BACK TO SEALS: if they are to be more realistic (no commando btw, just build them in your west point) it would be cool if they could attack from submarines and have a withdrawal chance and access to flanking instead of either march or the 1-2 fs?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

One simple way to improve the Seals might be to change the 1-2 fs to Drill I + II (like the Oromo musket) giving them access to the high level Drills (or even just 1fs+ Drill I

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

That is a good way of doing it. But I'd keep the 1 - 2 FS, and then also give Drill I and II and we're really talking now. That's 3 - 6 first strikes and you can still promote the unit to Drill III / IV. I'm a huge fan of the drill line and that sounds like a bad ass UU to me.

@mboettcher: It is an amazing advantage when already stronger when it comes to defense. Think of this: 1 Drill IV promoted infantry unit and 2 Drill IV promoted machine gun (in a city with fortification bonus) will eliminate a stack of 5 rifles, 5 grenadier, and 3 trebuchet. The machine gun might actually be in the red (or dead if bad luck), but you're guaranteed to have that infantry still standing and probably with decent HP.

The higher base strength added with the defense bonuses already give each unit the ability to confidently win 2 battles, however, with the whole drill line, each unit has the ability to confidently win 4-5 battles because barely any damage will be dealt. Also, if the AI thinks it's suicide trebs will do the trick, the 50% less collateral damage from the drill line will eliminate a lot of that damage (considering trebs aren't that strong in the first place).

EDIT: Sorry everyone for going so far off topic! it's a bad habit.

 

[Uberfrog]

So the new one is more historical than origninal? The oringinal is better and more suitable. The New Spearman has the linen armor as i said, this armor is more tough and used in later periods. The New Phalanx is based on VERY early periods, yet it is stronger. Even if this game wants to emphasis the spartan hoplite as a UU, then atleast they should add the right Hoplon symbol and a red cape.

You're focussing on the graphical look of the unit, instead of the stats, which is what everyone else is talking about in reference to historical accuracy.

 

[peter450]

I think your thinking of Woodsman for healing units but yes guerilla III is very strong with the the 50% withdrawal chance and the hill combat. Plus the AI has a nasty habit of building cities on hills and this helps.

Also I don't see the advantage of drill line by itself. It seems to be mostly a support promotion to increase the powers of other promos (other than the reduced collateral)

You raise a good point here, drill on it's own is not as strong as combat stars

A unit with 50% odd's at no promotions will get better combat odd's by adding 4 stars than it will by adding drill1,2,3,4

What drill is good for though is lowering combat fatigue, I'E you have a fight an take some dmg, drill reduces this damage, so a unit of 9 str taking on one of 6, with all the drill promo's you have a high chance of taking little to no dmg in combat, were the combat str of a unit is double, I'E after all modifiers are taken into account the end str is say 4 vs 8 and you have a good number of FS, I'E 3 - 6 the chance to win without damage is pretty much 100%

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Drill is best used with defensive units. Don't attack with drill units unless they have a decent (95%+) chance of surviving. If you have a defense unit that only has a 50% chance of surviving a fight, he's already been damaged, or your tech level is lower than your enemy's and you're pretty screwed anyway.

 

[DigitalBoy]

Drill makes more sense when you have other factors besides base strength. For example, a longbowman gets +4.5 for having City Garrison I, II, and III when in a city. This seems like a huge boost when you look at the scrawny 6 body, but when you consider that the longbowman is probably a 12 unit from all the bonuses it gets inside the city, the benefit is not as large comparatively. However, the first strikes that Drill promotions provide get more useful, not less useful like CG promotions, when you take these extra bonuses into consideration.