Civ Discussion - Abbasid

[bengalryan9]

We are now ready to begin talking about the exploration age civs, and the first one alphabetically is Abbasid. They are a cultural and scientific civilization with a starting bias towards camels and coastal terrain. Their associated wonder is the House of Wisdom (+3 science, +3 relics, 3 relic slots, and +2 science on all great works). To unlock them naturally you need to either improve 3 camels in antiquity, play as Egypt or Persia in antiquity, or choose Ibn Battuta as your leader. Abbasid unlocks Buganda and Mughal India in the modern age.

Their unique ability is Medina, which gives 30 gold for each rural population of the city any time you create a specialist in that city.
Their unique military unit is the Mamluk, a courser replacement that receives +1 CS for every urban population in a settlement when stationed or occupying that settlement.
Their unique civilian unit is the ‘Alim, a great person with a range of bonus possibilities. I’m not going to list each one, but these grant free buildings (observatory, menagerie, or hospital) with bonus yields, give a free tech, a couple of free specialists, a free policy slot, or bonus science, happiness, or influence.
Their unique buildings are the Madrasa - which gives a base +5 science and bonus science for adjacent wonders, quarters, or science buildings - and the Mosque – which gives a base +4 happiness, and bonus culture or happiness for adjacent wonders, cultural buildings, and happiness buildings. Together these create the unique quarter the Ulema, which gives +1 science to all specialists in the city and allows you to train ‘Alim.

Abbasid civics are:
Round City – unlocks the Mosque and gives +50% production towards buildings in cities with at least 8 urban population. At mastery it unlocks the City of Peace tradition and gives +4 food to all science buildings.
Mawla – unlocks the Madrasa, gives +2 happiness to resources in settlements with a temple, and gives science equal to 25% of your trade income. At mastery it unlocks the Sales and Trade tradition, and gives Mamluks a 50% bonus from flanking
Al-Jabr – unlocks the Compendious Book tradition and gives +15% science to cities with at least 8 urban population. At mastery it unlocks the House of Wisdom and gives +33% happiness towards maintaining specialists.

Abbasid traditions:
City of Peace – all buildings receive a +1 science adjacency with the city hall and palace
Sales and Trade - +3 gold and +3 science for each resource assigned to cities with at least 8 urban population
Compendious Book - +4 science in towns

What are your thoughts on the Abbasid? Are they strong, weak, or just right? Any potential buffs or nerfs you’d like to see? Which leaders do you feel go well with them, and which civ path do you typically take in games where you aim to play as Abbasid?

 

[Leucarum]

Abbasids are the Maya of exploration IMO. The amount of science they generate is just bananas. And if you follow Abassids on from Maya you are probably going to speed run science in the final age.

The only part of their kit which is bad are the 'Alim. Just ignore them and you'll be fine.

 

[Navelgazer]

Ok, here we go! Abbasid is, IMO, the only civ that truly rivals Maya for "best in any age."

Medina is a money-printing machine that rewards you for doing what you should be doing in Exploration anyway. There's probably a strategy to maximize effectiveness of this ability, but honestly, just playing naturally (i.e. grabbing your nearby resources and adding specialists) will give you more than enough of a cash boost to an already rich civ that you don't need to worry about it.

The Mamluk is outstanding. Definitely more geared for defense than offense, but that's fine. It still gets the bonus for occupying.

The Ulema is one of the best UQs in the game, pumping out science, happiness and culture if placed right (which you might have to plan for in Antiquity so that you can get it a prime spot near as many wonders as possible.)

Round City massively boosts your production in your bigger cities, and then at mastery helps your cities grow that much faster. Mawla gives you happiness and science from trade, and then at mastery boosts your Mamluk. And Al-Jabr boosts your science even more and then at mastery helps to keep you happy.

To say nothing of these absurd traditions! City of Peace: All buildings in or adjacent to your city centers (minus the palace and city hall themselves) get +1 science! That's amazing! Sales & Trade: Significant gold and science for each resource assigned to your larger cities! Which is where the grand majority of your resources are going anyway! Compendious Book: Science from towns!

They get no settlement cap increases through their unique civic tree (in Exploration Era, the only other civ with no settlement cap increase is Inca), but that doesn't matter that much for how they play. As Leucarum says, they pump out so much science it's absurd. It's interesting to me that they're Scientific/Cultural instead of Scientific/Economic, considering that they have so many bonuses to gold/trade and their only specific cultural bonus comes from the Mosques adjacencies, but whatever. Abbasid is built to win hard.

As for the 'Alim, they're not the most important part of the kit, but I like them. Their bonuses are randomized, like any of the UUs of this type, but they're all worthwhile, and you have so much gold as Abbasid that it's nothing to just buy them when you feel like it.

And, of course, House of Wisdom, one of the best Exploration Age wonders, and one deep enough in the general civics tree that it's usually taken by the time you can get to it (actually, in my experience, it usually times out so that an AI civ gets it while I'm building it.) This is a solid bonus, and paired with Rila Monastery can be great for locking down your culture legacy.

Honestly, the biggest problem with this civ is that the science moves so fast that you might miss out on finishing a legacy path or two. But that's a first world problem if ever there were one.

ETA: As for the unlocks, Buganda isn't particularly great, and you want lots of lakes if you're playing as them anyway, and if you have the lakes, you've already got them unlocked, so whatever. They also don't have a lot of synergy with what Abbasid is doing IMO (ideally if you're playing Buganda, you want to be evolving into them from Bulgaria.) Mughal India isn't a tough unlock by any means, and there are even multiple paths to it, but it's still a nice one to have here, and fits Abbasid's gameplan much better (making use of the gold infrastructure and shoring up the science malus from Mughal's UA.)

 

[Yzman]

They are great for reasons already stated and it might be a minor point but feel I should add it for completion, the Mosque allows you to found a religion.

 

[Lord Lakely]

If Maya were a snowball, Abbasids are the avalanche.

The Abbasids are probably *the* strongest Civ in the game, and the only thing contesting that status is that they're Exploration instead of Antiquity. Either way, them and the Mayans are only two Civs I would consider S-tier because of the sheer impact their quarters and traditions provide. which last for the rest of the game.

In Exploration they're good at science, culture AND gold, which means they not only unlock everything earlier, they can also purchase it in their cities. Or convert their towns into cities, get more Ulema's, rince and repeat. Their Happiness bonuses are also not irrelevant - it helps them maintain specialists in their cities AND go over the Settlement Cap with fewer problems. Which is easy for the gold Civs anyway (of which they are one) since they can just buy the settlers.

Excellent Civ. They're so easy to play and more importantly, help you catch up with other AIs if you had a rough Antiquity.

 

[disjointaccount]

Agree with everything said so far. They're the Maya of exploration. Just absolute landslides of yields. The 'Alims could be better but great people are easier to justify spamming in a second-tier city in exploration and the 'Alim's bonuses are all general enough that it shouldn't ever be a Tjaty situation where it's a roll for something vital vs. something useless.

Traditions are bonkers, UI is bonkers - obviously the quarter effect is fantastic but even on their own the buildings are solid. I don't think it's a coincidence that the two civs most frequently brought up as the best in the game are the two with pre-modern science buildings - and the bonus towards one of the age's strongest wonders is the cherry on top

The achilles' heel imo is the Mamluk. Realistically, the Abbasid playstyle is one of turtling and sim-city-ing, and the Mamluk is well-build for that, but I'm still going to hold it against a civ if their UU (especially a cav UU) is actively worse than usual on offence.

All round just a fantastic civ. Probably could do with a nerf - I think it's a Maya situation where any one or two of their strong aspects would be fine on its own, but altogether almost every aspect of their kit being at or close to best-in-age status just makes them a bit overtuned.

 

[bengalryan9]

My thoughts on Abbasid are pretty short - I don't have many because I never seem to unlock them. I played them once but it was my second game of civ 7 and I was still learning the game. They obviously look really strong I just don't have a lot of experience with them.

Right now I think my first game after the patch will probably be as Egypt just so I can go Abbasid in Exploration.

 

[tedhebert]

My thoughts on Abbasid are pretty short - I don't have many because I never seem to unlock them. I played them once but it was my second game of civ 7 and I was still learning the game. They obviously look really strong I just don't have a lot of experience with them.

Right now I think my first game after the patch will probably be as Egypt just so I can go Abbasid in Exploration.

honestly since the last patch, I systematically disable the civ unlocks… there are so few civs already, I don’t want to have some not accessible on top of that…

playing abbasid for only the second time atm… also could never seem to unlock them… it’s a very strong civ indeed for all the reasons listed above

 

[Lord Lakely]

I think it's good that the Abbasids are difficult to unlock. Their power should be wielded responsibly. Achaemenid Xerxes Persia or Augustus with whoever are is probably the optimal route into them.

In fact, if you manage to unlock Abbasids manually, that usually results into unethical avalanching. One of my latest games was Tecumseh Han into Abbasids and it was absurd. The era lasted 67 turns, during which I ate all of Bolivar (well over the Settlement cap), Suzed every City State, maxed all legacies except Treasure Fleets, and I had more than triple the yield income of the second strongest AI. Stacking some of the strongest bonuses in the game can lead to some spicy overkill. Who knew?

 

[disjointaccount]

I think it's good that the Abbasids are difficult to unlock. Their power should be wielded responsibly. Achaemenid Xerxes Persia or Augustus with whoever are is probably the optimal route into them.

In fact, if you manage to unlock Abbasids manually, that usually results into unethical avalanching. One of my latest games was Tecumseh Han into Abbasids and it was absurd. The era lasted 67 turns, during which I ate all of Bolivar (well over the Settlement cap), Suzed every City State, maxed all legacies except Treasure Fleets, and I had more than triple the yield income of the second strongest AI. Stacking some of the strongest bonuses in the game can lead to some spicy overkill. Who knew?

I think the Abbasid unlock is really funny. It's hard, which is good, but the unlock condition is such that (because Camels are so strong) if you hit it you're likely already in a very strong position and are just set to absolutely obliterate the rest of the game as Abbasid. Compared to someone like Majapahit (at least, the pearls unlock condition), where that's something you likely have to go out your way for, but is going to result in settles that are likely a bit weirder and less optimal, at least depending on your antiquity civ. Beelining and settling camels is just optimal antiquity play, and if you've pulled off three of them, Abbasid is probably overkill.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Oh yeah, Majapahit is one of two Exploration Civs (the other being Spain) that I've never been able to unlock via conventional gameplay. Their objectives are whack - pearls are rare and three naval trade routes isn't much easier.

Spain still has the worst unlock condition though. (Reconquer a lost settlement? i'd rather click restart, thank you.)

 

[disjointaccount]

I've actually gotten Spain in a couple of games, just because a city was going to fall to barbs one turn sooner than I could get there so I just let it and recaptured when my troops arrived. That's still a hell of a lot more niche than "build 5 walls" though.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I've actually gotten Spain in a couple of games, just because a city was going to fall to barbs one turn sooner than I could get there so I just let it and recaptured when my troops arrived. That's still a hell of a lot more niche than "build 5 walls" though.

Build 5 Walls, build 3 Altars - some unlock conditions are as simplistic as "play the game for 25 turns", compared to others that amount to 'jump through a dozen hoops on one leg".

There's another mechanic that desperately needs a balance pass somewhere along the line . . .

 

[UWHabs]

Build 5 Walls, build 3 Altars - some unlock conditions are as simplistic as "play the game for 25 turns", compared to others that amount to 'jump through a dozen hoops on one leg".

There's another mechanic that desperately needs a balance pass somewhere along the line . . .

Yeah, 3 altars for Bulgaria or 2 Fleet Commanders for Britain are basically "play the game normally." Similar with the 8+ resources in your capital to unlock medieval China, I can't imagine I've played a game so far where I haven't unlocked that one.
I'm also not a big fan of unlocks like the US, which I think is like "build 3 settlements on grassland tiles", which to me just feels completely random. Like, okay, for someone like Russia, it makes sense since they get specific bonuses for the terrain.

Personally I think I'd rather all the unlock conditions were harder and not always achievable. Initially I agreed with people that the Spain recapture condition didn't seem fair, but after playing for a bit, I think I prefer it that way. Like if the unlock for America was like "Have a settlement on a 5+ tile long navigable river in the distant lands" (representing settling the Mississippi), IMO that would be a cooler option. Or maybe it's that OR have 30 resource tiles in settlements in distant lands (or something like have 30 resource tiles within 3 of your distant lands settlements), since that would fit in with America's in-game play needs.

To circle back to the Abbasid unlock, true 3 camels probably means you're in decent shape, but they're not the most common resource around (sometimes the entire continent might only have 3 or 4 camels), so IMO that's not necessarily a bad one. Yes, it's a little bit of an avalanche, as mentioned Camels are usually resources which I will go out of my way to try to settle, as opposed to Pearls or Jade, which are not bad, but I'm not going to really fight to sneak in a city to get them.

 

[Stepbr]

Another Abbasid fan here... to the extent that every game, I have an unofficial quest to find and settle near three camels in Antiquity. Independent Powers often seem to spawn near camels (or at least, they do in my games) -- so suze and incorporate.

I agree Alims are not as inspiring as the rest of the Abbasid kit but the one that gives a one-off 50 influence per tile on navigable rivers (shouldn't it be "navigATable rivers"?) is very useful. It's not uncommon to find a 10-tile river for a 500 influence boost!

And Abbasid unlocks Mughal, who are (in my view) almost as overpowered.

 

[Krikkit1]

Yeah, 3 altars for Bulgaria or 2 Fleet Commanders for Britain are basically "play the game normally." Similar with the 8+ resources in your capital to unlock medieval China, I can't imagine I've played a game so far where I haven't unlocked that one.
I'm also not a big fan of unlocks like the US, which I think is like "build 3 settlements on grassland tiles", which to me just feels completely random. Like, okay, for someone like Russia, it makes sense since they get specific bonuses for the terrain.

Personally I think I'd rather all the unlock conditions were harder and not always achievable. Initially I agreed with people that the Spain recapture condition didn't seem fair, but after playing for a bit, I think I prefer it that way. Like if the unlock for America was like "Have a settlement on a 5+ tile long navigable river in the distant lands" (representing settling the Mississippi), IMO that would be a cooler option. Or maybe it's that OR have 30 resource tiles in settlements in distant lands (or something like have 30 resource tiles within 3 of your distant lands settlements), since that would fit in with America's in-game play needs.

To circle back to the Abbasid unlock, true 3 camels probably means you're in decent shape, but they're not the most common resource around (sometimes the entire continent might only have 3 or 4 camels), so IMO that's not necessarily a bad one. Yes, it's a little bit of an avalanche, as mentioned Camels are usually resources which I will go out of my way to try to settle, as opposed to Pearls or Jade, which are not bad, but I'm not going to really fight to sneak in a city to get them.

The America one is 3 Grassland or Plains Settlements in Distant Lands. (Matching Mexico’s Desert/Tropical) So it does do the Distant Lands effect.

Making some of them harder would probably be good (for non resource ones, you could just beef up the number)

 

[Menocchio]

It's a blessing and a curse that leaders now unlock civs based on their strategic choices, so Abbasids I feel are no longer kind of a niche civ to get. I still prefer leaders having historical unlocks, but—having chosen them almost exclusively every time I enter Exploration—I think it'd be fine for their unlock to be eased up a bit. Something niche but controllable, say: "have a Science building with a +3 adjacency in a City with an Altar." Flavourful and not automatic but not random either.

I absolutely adore Abbasids mind you, they're easily one of my favourite civs in the whole game, but where I used to think they were totally overpowered, now I'm not so convinced. Their Science and Gold outputs are fantastic, but the Mamluk is very inflexible and they suffer on Culture pretty heavily if you aren't coming from Antiquity with a solidly-built Culture civ. With unique civics more expensive now, the drag on Culture felt really palpable to me in my last game as them. Between the Mamluk and the lack of Settlement limit increases—which are again gated by civics—they aren't really going to do much effective conquering, and their ability to expand into the Distant Lands suffers beyond their ability to get the techs for sea exploration quickly. They're superb at Happiness generation though, which normally functions to cover the costs of Specialists, but I think with Pachacuti or either of the Ashokas you could hijack it into something powerful.

All in all, I find Abbasids an interesting case study for how Civ VII effectively curtailed the predominance of Science civs from past games. The 3-Age structure means you can never get super far ahead (or behind) and the per-tier unit bonuses don't really facilitate a Domination tech rush the way they used to. I'm on the fence as to whether this is a full improvement or if it defangs some of the interesting Civ tempo play too much.