Civ Discussion - Dai Viet

[bengalryan9]

The next civ up for discussion in our march through the exploration age is one of the civ’s that was just added with the last patch – Dai Viet. The Vietnamese are a cultural and expansionist civilization with a starting bias towards tropical and floodplains. Their associated wonder is Thanh Hue (+4 culture and +1 specialist in any city with 7+ walls… can also only be built in a city with 7+ walls). They can be unlocked by playing as the Khmer, as Trung Trac, or by having 3 settlements on tropical terrain. They automatically unlock Siam in the modern age.

Their unique ability is Hich Tuong Si, which gives +5 culture for every urban population of a settlement any time you construct a fortification there.
Their unique military unit is the Voi Chien, a heavy archer replacement with +1 movement and sight, +5 combat strength, and the ability to move after attacking. It is more expensive, though.
Their unique civilian unit is the Quan Vuong, a settler replacement that receives +5 culture for every tropical tile within 3 tiles of the city center.
Their unique infrastructure is the Water Puppet Theater. It gives +4 food, +2 happiness if built on floodplains, and +1 culture anytime a tile gains fertility due to a natural disaster. It also prevents improvements, buildings, and districts from being pillaged by floods.

Dai Viet civics:
Cam Quan – units get +3 CS during formal wars, and that is increased in your own territory. At mastery it unlocks the Cam Binh tradition and gives +50% production towards fortifications.
Chu Nom – gives +1 relic and +1 culture adjacency to buildings from tropical tiles. At mastery it unlocks the Con Kenh tradition and gives +2 culture to floodplains tiles.
Thanh Hoang – unlocks the Water Puppet Theater and Thanh Hue. At mastery it unlocks the Ruong Lang Xa tradition and gives +2 food to Water Puppet Theaters in settlements with a gristmill.
Tu Dan – gives +5 CS when defending in fortified districts in tropical terrain, as well as +1 settlement limit

Dai Viet traditions:
Cam Binh - +2 gold on fortifications in settlements with at least 1 garrisoned unit
Con Kenh - +2 culture to food buildings and +2 food to culture buildings
Ruong Lang Xa - +10% growth in towns

What are your thoughts about the Vietnamese? Impressed or not? Are they strong, weak, or just right? Which leaders do you think they pair well with, and which antiquity or modern age civs also compliment them?

 

[bengalryan9]

I have yet to play a game as the Vietnamese - I plan on doing so in my next game by starting as Khmer - but looking at their kit they feel like my kind of civ. I like to turtle and build and they seem made for that. I always seem to struggle with culture generation in Exploration and they are designed to help with that as well. All their uniques seem useful and their traditions do as well. I'm intrigued!

Consensus seems to be split on Thanh Hue but I lean towards it being pretty good. Seven fortifications is a lot but with some pre-planning is pretty achievable... consider NOT replacing your ancient walls with medieval walls or considering befriending military city states for their UI, for example. Even without those I generally have cities that can pump out walls in 1-2 turns, and it would be even faster as Vietnam... and I think the +1 specialist in those cities is worth it, personally.

Khmer is the only civ that automatically unlocks them, and I think there is definitely some synergy there (grow tall, build both associated wonders, go specialist crazy). As far as off the beaten path transitions are concerned, I think Maya makes a lot of sense and Vietnam should basically be a guaranteed unlock for them. Trickier ones that I also think would be interesting are Han and Assyria, but it'll probably take some more work to get the unlock.

 

[pjotroos]

I found them fantastic. Strong across the board, without feeling overpowered, with a very clear, very coherent theme.

I love civs that reward historical settling, and going for tropical cities really leaves you with a ton of culture here.

Voi Chien were tons of fun to use, great both at defending wide territory, and blasting multiple salvos in a single turn from a single tile, when paired with a commander. Unpack, shoot, pack, rinse and repeat.

Quan Vuong is a rare settler replacement that feels truly worth the unit slot. Early jungle settlements make tangible difference.

Khmer is the default pre-requisite, but they're not that hard to unlock if you know you want to play them - just three tropical settlements - and Puppet Theater makes Barai redundant, nullifying one of the few perks playing Khmer normally gives you.

Thahn Hue seems to have some extra requirement not listed in the tooltip - flat terrain, possibly - since I'm not always able to build it, even if the city has 7 medieval walls and an empty space next to one.

 

[CliffCo]

As far as off the beaten path transitions are concerned, I think Maya makes a lot of sense and Vietnam should basically be a guaranteed unlock for them. Trickier ones that I also think would be interesting are Han and Assyria, but it'll probably take some more work to get the unlock.

I usually select the option to unlock all as it enables me to play different combinations that i may not have been able to unlock otherwise.

 

[Giskler]

You generate silly amounts of culture (think pre-nerf Hawaii). Super strong.

 

[Leucarum]

I am very unexcited to play Dai Viet... Mechanically they seem really similar to their Civ6 precursor, and despite the power level looking high, I just don't have any motivation to play them.

 

[Navelgazer]

My last game was with them (starting as Ada Lovelace/Maya) and that game snowballed something silly. Thanh Hue isn’t a wonder I’d likely build very often, but as long as you’re building ridiculous amounts of walls anyway, it’s fantastic.

 

[bengalryan9]

I usually select the option to unlock all as it enables me to play different combinations that i may not have been able to unlock otherwise.

My personal preference is not to do that - makes the game more fun when I have different options every game and forces me to try new combos.

Nothing against those who play with automatic unlocks and I'm glad the option is there, it's just not for me.

 

[reddishrecue]

I am very unexcited to play Dai Viet... Mechanically they seem really similar to their Civ6 precursor, and despite the power level looking high, I just don't have any motivation to play them.

I've been feeling the same way.

My last game was with them (starting as Ada Lovelace/Maya) and that game snowballed something silly. Thanh Hue isn’t a wonder I’d likely build very often, but as long as you’re building ridiculous amounts of walls anyway, it’s fantastic.

Really? Sounds awesome... I must admit that civilization does come with its surprises during game play at times. I just don't usually have the motivation to play sometimes though.

 

[untitledjuan]

As of now, less than a year since the release of the base game, we have four Southeast Asian civilizations (Khmer, Vietnam, Majapahit and Siam). Meanwhile, we only have one civilization from all of South America. I really hope the devs show the same level of love they've given to Southeast Asia to other parts of the world as well, specially in order to finally create historically sensible links for all existing civilizations in the current game.

 

[notNamed]

As of now, less than a year since the release of the base game, we have four Southeast Asian civilizations (Khmer, Vietnam, Majapahit and Siam). Meanwhile, we only have one civilization from all of South America. I really hope the devs show the same level of love they've given to Southeast Asia to other parts of the world as well, specially in order to finally create historically sensible links for all existing civilizations in the current game.

Dai Viet is not a SEA civilisation, though. The current tally is:

Mesopotamian (1): Assyria
Mediterranean (4): Carthage, Rome, Greeks, Egypt
Catholic European (7): Normans, Spain, America, Britain, France, Mexico, Prussia
Orthodox European (2): Bulgaria, Russia
Eurasian Steppe (1): Mongolia
Persianate (4): Persia, Abbasids, Mughals, Qajars
Indic (6): Maurya, Khmer, Chola, Majapahit, Siam, Nepal
East Asian (6): Han, Silla, Ming, Dai Viet, Meiji, Qing
East African (1): Aksum
Bantu (1): Buganda
Sahelian (1): Songhai
NA Woodlands (2): Mississipians, Shawnee
Mesoamerican (1): Maya
Andean (1): Inca
Polynesian (1): Hawaii

 

[Ryansinbela]

Dai Viet is in Southeast Asia though

 

[notNamed]

Dai Viet is in Southeast Asia though

Yeah, but as I understood it, untitledjuan was complaining about the lack of historically sensible links vis-a-vis SEA, not geographic ones.
Dai Viet has only 1 sensible link to the mentioned civs by colonising the Khmer people in the 1800s.
Which is the same as the 1 connection that Andean culture has through colonisation by the Spanish explorers operating out of modern Mexico.

 

[Siptah]

Dai Viet is in Southeast Asia though

It is usually, but this category doesn‘t exist in their system. I‘m not sure how they reached their grouping and where the categories come from, but I can see several cases where I wouldn‘t agree. Egypt isn‘t Mediterranean (usually Nilotic, especially when doing many subdivides in Africa) and Prussia isn‘t catholic, for example. But maybe this is a common approach to group cultures in a specific discipline or field.

 

[Ryansinbela]

Yeah I can kinda understand
I was thinking geographically even though the list is more cultural focused

I like how it’s organized (we need more North Americans, South Americans, Non Mediterranean Africans, and Polynesians/Oceanians)

 

[pjotroos]

Yeah, but as I understood it, untitledjuan was complaining about the lack of historically sensible links vis-a-vis SEA, not geographic ones.
Dai Viet has only 1 sensible link to the mentioned civs by colonising the Khmer people in the 1800s.
Which is the same as the 1 connection that Andean culture has through colonisation by the Spanish explorers operating out of modern Mexico.

I read the post straight; there is only one country on the South American landmass, versus four on the SEA peninsula.
Most of the "historically sensible links" we have right now come via conquest. You rule that out, and there is not a single linked pair of civs in Europe, either.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

As of now, less than a year since the release of the base game, we have four Southeast Asian civilizations (Khmer, Vietnam, Majapahit and Siam). Meanwhile, we only have one civilization from all of South America. I really hope the devs show the same level of love they've given to Southeast Asia to other parts of the world as well, specially in order to finally create historically sensible links for all existing civilizations in the current game.

Not surprised considering the main historian on the team is an expert on Southeast Asia.

Yeah, but as I understood it, untitledjuan was complaining about the lack of historically sensible links vis-a-vis SEA, not geographic ones.
Dai Viet has only 1 sensible link to the mentioned civs by colonising the Khmer people in the 1800s.
Which is the same as the 1 connection that Andean culture has through colonisation by the Spanish explorers operating out of modern Mexico.

No, they just want more civs elsewhere now considering Southeast Asia does have 4 now, while the whole of South America has one. Despite being part of the Sinosphere, Vietnam/Dai Viet is also geographically part of Southeast Asia so it encompasses both worlds and so does have more cohesive links than the Inca, who have to evolve from civs and progress to civs that originated in different continents right now.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I agree that Dai Viet definitely has a historical link with the Chinese line, but I also think they're definitely *supposed* to be the link between Khmer and Siam, moreso than Majapahit is.

Indonesia should probably end up as its own separate line, starting with Sri Vijaya and ending in some Malay kingdom or the Philippines.

 

[untitledjuan]

Not surprised considering the main historian on the team is an expert on Southeast Asia.

No, they just want more civs elsewhere now considering Southeast Asia does have 4 now, while the whole of South America has one. Despite being part of the Sinosphere, Vietnam/Dai Viet is also geographically part of Southeast Asia so it encompasses both worlds and so does have more cohesive links than the Inca, who have to evolve from civs and progress to civs that originated in different continents right now.

I think the South America line(s) could go as follows:

Caral>Inca>Mapuche
Arawak>Tupi>Brazil
Arawak>Muisca>Colombia

There should also be the option the get to Brazil and Colombia via Spain and Portugal:

Rome/Greece/Carthage>Spain>Colombia
Rome/Greece/Carthage>Portugal>Brazil

 

[UWHabs]

Not surprised considering the main historian on the team is an expert on Southeast Asia.

No, they just want more civs elsewhere now considering Southeast Asia does have 4 now, while the whole of South America has one. Despite being part of the Sinosphere, Vietnam/Dai Viet is also geographically part of Southeast Asia so it encompasses both worlds and so does have more cohesive links than the Inca, who have to evolve from civs and progress to civs that originated in different continents right now.

I absolutely love that SE Asia is getting some love. Dai Viet does nicely fill in something of a mainland Exploration era SE Asia civ, so I'm not going to complain about them at all.

But I do think the next couple spots that need more work are South America and Sub-Saharan Africa.