Civ Discussion - Dai Viet

[Ryansinbela]

I absolutely love that SE Asia is getting some love. Dai Viet does nicely fill in something of a mainland Exploration era SE Asia civ, so I'm not going to complain about them at all.

But I do think the next couple spots that need more work are South America and Sub-Saharan Africa.

South America
Antiquity: Caral or Nazca
Exploration: Mapuche
Modern: Brazil, Guarani, Gran Colombia

Africa
Antiquity: Wagadou, some Bantu option
Exploration: Zagwe, Kilwa, Kongo
Modern: Ashanti, Zulu, Ethiopia

 

[Leucarum]

I'd suspect that the paucity of African and South American representation is also a business decision if people do tend to stick to prioritize playing in their local region.

I also don't want to begrudge SEA its civs - its not been fleshed out this early before, so we're probably singling it out because it got the thing we'd like for other regions... But it would be nice to make up the numbers missing elsewhere...Especially with Civ switching meaning you need far more for a region to feel complete.

 

[disjointaccount]

I've only had one game with them so far and I don't think I was really set up to get the most out of them. On paper I think I see the vision, though I'm still not convinced they're a top tier civ. With a lot of floodplains and plenty of urban sprawl for lots of walls there's definitely potential for insane culture generation. I think Khmer -> Dai Viet will probably be my next game.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

The next civ up for discussion in our march through the exploration age is one of the civ’s that was just added with the last patch – Dai Viet. The Vietnamese are a cultural and expansionist civilization with a starting bias towards tropical and floodplains. Their associated wonder is Thanh Hue (+4 culture and +1 specialist in any city with 7+ walls… can also only be built in a city with 7+ walls). They can be unlocked by playing as the Khmer, as Trung Trac, or by having 3 settlements on tropical terrain. They automatically unlock Siam in the modern age.

Their unique ability is Hich Tuong Si, which gives +5 culture for every urban population of a settlement any time you construct a fortification there.
Their unique military unit is the Voi Chien, a heavy archer replacement with +1 movement and sight, +5 combat strength, and the ability to move after attacking. It is more expensive, though.
Their unique civilian unit is the Quan Vuong, a settler replacement that receives +5 culture for every tropical tile within 3 tiles of the city center.
Their unique infrastructure is the Water Puppet Theater. It gives +4 food, +2 happiness if built on floodplains, and +1 culture anytime a tile gains fertility due to a natural disaster. It also prevents improvements, buildings, and districts from being pillaged by floods.

Dai Viet civics:
Cam Quan – units get +3 CS during formal wars, and that is increased in your own territory. At mastery it unlocks the Cam Binh tradition and gives +50% production towards fortifications.
Chu Nom – gives +1 relic and +1 culture adjacency to buildings from tropical tiles. At mastery it unlocks the Con Kenh tradition and gives +2 culture to floodplains tiles.
Thanh Hoang – unlocks the Water Puppet Theater and Thanh Hue. At mastery it unlocks the Ruong Lang Xa tradition and gives +2 food to Water Puppet Theaters in settlements with a gristmill.
Tu Dan – gives +5 CS when defending in fortified districts in tropical terrain, as well as +1 settlement limit

Dai Viet traditions:
Cam Binh - +2 gold on fortifications in settlements with at least 1 garrisoned unit
Con Kenh - +2 culture to food buildings and +2 food to culture buildings
Ruong Lang Xa - +10% growth in towns

What are your thoughts about the Vietnamese? Impressed or not? Are they strong, weak, or just right? Which leaders do you think they pair well with, and which antiquity or modern age civs also compliment them?

1. I don't know if the same rush of excitements on Viet fans still here as in Civ6 last expansions. given this number of replies to date I don't feel so. given a blundered performances of the game 'rather disappointments' reviews.
2. And prerequisite is not Han? (much of their cultures came from there). The only reasons Dai Viet successor is 'Siam' is populations only. so many emigres here. even the first modern 'Royal Artillery Regiment' is made up of Viets emigre. possibly those formerly parts of The Divine Engines divisions. or sons of those units. those people only a generation ago foughts against.
3. What is 'Cam Binh' is? is this 'Cam' (pronounced 'Som') means (Lesser) Cambodia? a target of conquest?
4. What is 'Thanh' in Civ6 actually is? A separate fortress not part of city scape itself. or what? Now it is a wonder (and tied to Hue city).

 

[notNamed]

3. What is 'Cam Binh' is? is this 'Cam' (pronounced 'Som') means (Lesser) Cambodia? a target of conquest?
4. What is 'Thanh' in Civ6 actually is? A separate fortress not part of city scape itself. or what? Now it is a wonder (and tied to Hue city).

禁軍 (Cấm Quân) and 禁兵 (Cấm Binh). Forbidden army and Forbidden soldier, i.e. royal/palatial (from palace - forbidden city 禁城) guards.

The 城 (Thành) in Civ 6 and Civ 7 are the same thing, you just needed to look up what it was supposed to represent on Civ 6's civilopedia whereas in Civ 7 it uses a more directly representative model with a gate to the inner city of Hue built in the mid-19th century. It's supposed to be the inner walled cities you see in the Sinosphere. The royal citadels of Thang Long and Hue, the forbidden cities of Beijing and Nanjing, the Imperial City (and possibly Taiji Palace as well) of Chang An, et cetera. Just to name the easily searchable examples.

Spoiler Highlights of the interior walled city on the maps of Chang An and Hue. :

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

禁軍 (Cấm Quân) and 禁兵 (Cấm Binh). Forbidden army and Forbidden soldier, i.e. royal/palatial (from palace - forbidden city 禁城) guards.

The 城 (Thành) in Civ 6 and Civ 7 are the same thing, you just needed to look up what it was supposed to represent on Civ 6's civilopedia whereas in Civ 7 it uses a more directly representative model with a gate to the inner city of Hue built in the mid-19th century. It's supposed to be the inner walled cities you see in the Sinosphere. The royal citadels of Thang Long and Hue, the forbidden cities of Beijing and Nanjing, the Imperial City (and possibly Taiji Palace as well) of Chang An, et cetera. Just to name the easily searchable examples.

Spoiler Highlights of the interior walled city on the maps of Chang An and Hue. :

View attachment 739015

View attachment 739017

is this '城' translated in English as 'Castle'? and is it only available for capitol? is Beijing's Forbidden City is also a type of '城'?

 

[phoenixician]

is this '城' translated in English as 'Castle'? and is it only available for capitol? is Beijing's Forbidden City is also a type of '城'?

They're similar, "Thành" differs than "castle" architecturally. A Thành refers to a fortified location that spanned over a significant area of the land--a walled city (which included non-capitol), a walled palace, or the wall itself; in the case if it's a walled palace, its buildings are usually one-storey, apart from one another. The castle typically refers to a fortified location reserved for people of nobility and imperial houses; architecturally it is more like a multiple-storey duplex where its individual buildings are not separated apart by significant distance. Think of it this way, where Thành expands horizontally, castle expands vertically.

Thành can be translated as "wall" or "citadel" in English, but its meaning is a bit more nuanced. "Lâu đài" is the literal translation of castle.

 

[bengalryan9]

I'm in the middle of my first game with Dai Viet and I gotta say, the Voi Chien is pretty strong. Having an extra movement point and the ability to move after attacking basically means that they're ranged units with extended range - you can move one tile towards the enemy, fire, and then retreat right back to where they started. That by itself would be pretty good but then they get an additional +5 CS on top of it, and with Cam Quan potentially another 3 or 6 CS on top of that. They're really good.

That culture bonus from Chu Nom can also be pretty crazy, especially if you start the game is Khmer or anyone else with a tropical starting bias.

Fun civ!

 

[uppi]

I'm in the middle of my first game with Dai Viet and I gotta say, the Voi Chien is pretty strong. Having an extra movement point and the ability to move after attacking basically means that they're ranged units with extended range - you can move one tile towards the enemy, fire, and then retreat right back to where they started. That by itself would be pretty good but then they get an additional +5 CS on top of it, and with Cam Quan potentially another 3 or 6 CS on top of that. They're really good.

They really shine in combination with an assault commander: pop out, take a shot, pop back in. And then repeat that for the other Voi Chiens in that commander. This way you can take multiple shots from the same tile and the enemy cannot even shoot back at your ranged units

 

[Nikolai II]

I absolutely love that SE Asia is getting some love. Dai Viet does nicely fill in something of a mainland Exploration era SE Asia civ, so I'm not going to complain about them at all.

But I do think the next couple spots that need more work are South America and Sub-Saharan Africa.

Yeah same. I love that new, important places I as a Westerner know less about, is fleshed out.

 

[local_hero]

One of my favourite civs since they were introduced, the Water puppet theathre is just so pretty! I try to spam it everywhere.

I really like their traditions.

I can't remember how many times I've bought the elephant UU instead of the settler, but that's probably mostly a me issue.

Other things that feels a bit clunky is how expensive it is to get to their increased settlement limit in the civics tree. And progressing into the Modern Age, I always wish I had the Norman tradition to build fortifications 50% faster - 7 walls is a huge investment to increase your specialist limit.