Civ Old Timer Has Questions About Civ3... Answer Them Please!

[justanick]

WW from Republic is crippling.

How does war weariness work?

The study of war weariness goes on. I will thank Bamspeedy and DaveMcW (any other?) for their research, it really helped. General: We measure war weariness with wwp (war weariness point). Each civ have one wwp number against each of the other civs. The different levels of war...

forums.civfanatics.com

You might want to know how it works. If you do, then with some practice it becomes easy enough to keep WW at zero in most turns and significant in only a few turns.

getting me tons of corruption free production trade and science under Commie that would be far more significant than relying on my core metros as a Republic??

Say you have 80 metros at 30% corruption in communism or as a republic you have 40 metros with 70% corruption and 40 metros with an average corruption of 30% and therefore a total average of 50% for all 80 metros. As commie you get 1.5 commerce per tile prior to corruption and 2.5 as a republic. On average it is 1.05 uncorrupted commerce as commie vs. 1.25 as a republic. Republic still wins till quite late in the game.

But the bigger advantage is of course when communism is still unavailable. In the middle age you may well research at a rate of 4 turns per tech. Having cavalry early gives you a healthy advantage on the battlefield. If circumstances allow, and on monarch they are still likely to do so, there is no (relevant) war before military tradition. This changes with cavalry. Cavalry is the game changer.

Also AI's don't like me and don't trade with me because I keep starting wars.

AI attitude

I spent a few weeks with an unpatched version of PTW and no internet access (to dowload the patch), so I decided to spend some of that time testing AI attitudes. This test was with the 1.01 version of PTW, so there might be a possibility that some of this was changed in a patch, but most likely...

forums.civfanatics.com

Having AI declare war on you is much better in terms of diplomacy. You should try to mitigate declaring war and when you still do, make sure that immediately after the DoW you sign military alliances with every other civ against your enemy. This makes warfare so much more convenient. Donnot be shy to spend gtp on military alliances. Stay defensive for a few turns so that other civs take the brunt of initial action. Then wipe the rest of your enemy off the map as fast as you reasonably can. With railroads that can happen very fast.

 

[Spoonwood]

Also AI's don't like me and don't trade with me because I keep starting wars.

This likely isn't it. Many of us have traded despite starting wars. The issue lies with breaking your reputation via starting wars WHEN you have some 20 turn deal still happening with an AI.

10% in luxuries to offset military police is fine. Thing is, later on, that 10%, becomes 0% when you have control of all luxuries, and sometimes that can happen early with trading for luxuries from the AIs.

, also added bonus is that your unit support will be so high you won't spend a dime supporting workers or an army.

This is just wrong. People still support workers or an army under a Republic. But, with gold per turn flowing from the AIs, say by selling technology, paying some gold per turn isn't much of an issue.

One thing that never really fails to prove me right, is this intuition that in Civ, you have to be big to be competitive.

This isn't true at Monarch level at least. People have won 5 city games and even 1 city games at that level.

There have existed games at higher levels also without any war at all.

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

Yeah sure, I think you're possibly right from your own perspectives.

The thing is, I've never DOW'ed an AI with whom I have a trade agreement. Still, because I dowed the Netherlands, the other AI's are now all annoyed at me. I know I should pick them carefully, but the thing is, if you DOW, then your relations with all of them suffer.

 

[justanick]

AIs are easily annoyed. One of the few effectives way to change that is to have a common enemy. But once this enemy is eliminated the effect is over. AI being annoyed is no hinderance for trading, just a little hurdle. It makes the price a bit less favourable, but it is well managable most of the time.

 

[Spoonwood]

It makes the price a bit less favourable, but it is well managable most of the time.

It doesn't change the price at minimum aggression at least. If you have other aggression levels, I think attitude can change price.

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

I just gotta add this, even though it might seem rather pedantic and way too much detail and the likes, but I finally managed to kick in a successful German Monarch Republic.

The key here being: 2 + 2 settler factories with key foodpoints, staying in Despotism up to 800 AD, curb stomping two neighbors and rush building FP with a military leader. I got two in my early wars, but one was sadly killed after his unit was destroyed by an enemy archer rush.

I was lucky to get key foodpoints in my capital and second city. Non-stop settler production, expand expand expand. Pop rush libraries everywhere to get culture bonus. Then after towns reach size 6, FP is built and two AI's beaten, switched from Despo straight into Republic. Didn't regret it. One of my best games so far. Besides, far better access to luxuries than in my previous Russia game was also a game changer.

I'm now going for Spaceship victory. Still enjoying tech lead.

Getting into Monarch was hard, but I guess I beat it. Finally.

Also, Sponwood, from one of your replies above, I was talking about getting a huge maintenance free army from Communism or Fascism, not Republic.

Republic army support still pathetic. But managed to build Woman's Suffrage, also contain my neighbors so they're never a threat. This mitigates it. Still miss the boatload of free units I get from Commie, but there's a lot of cash and tech coming in!

Still have a preference for Commie, warmonger, large army, SPHQ play style, though. And didn't forget about the "decisive factors" so far in any game: settler factories, food points, pop rushing early temples and libraries, luxuries, FP. One thing that might help me decide if I go Monarchy-Commie or Republic is luxuries, if I have few, it's safer to stay the Commie route.

But yeah that's all, enough about me and no more tiny details. Lemme get on. Thanks for the tips everybody.

 

[Spoonwood]

Republic army support still pathetic.

How much gold per turn do you get though from being a Republic? Unit support doesn't matter much if you have gpt coming from AIs.

I never pop rush. It's not decisive, and in truth, detrimental overall.

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

Hi Sponwood, I always always use pop rushing to grab territory, resources, contain unhappiness by temple building. Also it's important if you need to get an early med infantry army going against the AI, if I'm in Despo, I try to spare my core first one or two rings but pop rush everything else, it's war war war time. Then after that's done I'm ready to switch to something else.

I had three cities flipping to me, two the romans built inside some tundra deep into my territory (that's annoying, but I got better places to settle), the other a dutch town in some nice place I wasn't able to grab because of barbs. All of that because I pop rushed libraries in my surrounding towns, so it's clearly essential.

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

"How much gold per turn do you get though from being a Republic? Unit support doesn't matter much if you have gpt coming from AIs."

In my previous Russia game, it was barely 60 gold per turn.

But now since I've done everything right, in my Germany game it's up to 278 gold per turn. Including Wall Street, Smith's, Hoover Dam, and the likes. Admittedly I had better conditions, better terrain, also much better planning this time to grab the sort of stuff I needed to ensure high per turn income. That's rather higher than the 220 gold per turn in my Japan Commie game, but I had almost no wonders except for Wall Street then and I spent a longer time in wars with my neighbors to get to the 42% landmass mark.

 

[Spoonwood]

Hi Sponwood, I always always use pop rushing to grab territory, resources, contain unhappiness by temple building. Also it's important if you need to get an early med infantry army going against the AI, if I'm in Despo, I try to spare my core first one or two rings but pop rush everything else, it's war war war time. Then after that's done I'm ready to switch to something else.

I had three cities flipping to me, two the romans built inside some tundra deep into my territory (that's annoying, but I got better places to settle), the other a dutch town in some nice place I wasn't able to grab because of barbs. All of that because I pop rushed libraries in my surrounding towns, so it's clearly essential.

If it were essential, then going out with pop rushing would be deadly.

It's not deadly to avoid pop rushing. Plenty of people never do it, except maybe if playing for 100k. Also, doing such for libraries makes little sense. You lose population and thus research immediately when pop rushing. If you have population without roads for commerce, that's a sign that more workers would be beneficial over pop rushing.

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

In the earlier moments, with 1-4 pop, it's not the Science itself that matters but the Culture. Grabbing resources, making sad faces happy, building units, flipping one or two badly developed AI border towns, that's rich. Most research will come from your core and I generally try to avoid pop rushing these except for very early in the game.

EDIT - ALSO, I was pop rushing libraries because I was Germany. If I'm a Religious civ, it's usually temples. It depends on what's the cheapest source of culture.

 

[Spoonwood]

In the earlier moments, with 1-4 pop, it's not the Science itself that matters but the Culture.

Your city spacing is likely wide. There's no need for culture to expand borders with CxxC city spacing or tighter. I don't use CxxC spacing, but I often find only some cities need culture. And even then, pop rushing makes little sense.

Pop rushing doesn't make sad faces happy. On the contrary, it results in citizen unhappiness.

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

Well, I persisted with the CxxxC scheme. It's the best, because I want my towns to grow above 12, whatever they reach after that is another matter.

Culture expansion is needed in this scheme.

As for pop rushing, well, it doesn't make sad faces happy. But say you have one or two luxuries, you get rid of one sad face, the other sad face gets content because of a temple. In higher levels, that's important because your third or second citizen is always unhappy. After a city grows past 4 it's important to do this, esp. if trying to switch to Republic later.

 

[Spoonwood]

In higher levels, that's important because your third or second citizen is always unhappy. After a city grows past 4 it's important to do this, esp. if trying to switch to Republic later.

No, it's not important. For 20 turns after pop-rushing there exists unhappiness, and consequently the temple doesn't change anything with respect to happiness for 20 turns. If switching to a republic, then the luxury slider comes as more effective. The luxury slider comes as preferable to a temple, because once luxuries get traded for, the luxury slider getting dropped results in more commerce to gold or science. But, there's more production from having more population and not spending any turns building a temple. Two swordsmen or three catapults are easily more valuable than a temple. Even one swordsmen is more valuable than a temple.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

[T]here's more production from having more population and not spending any turns building a temple. Two swordsmen or three catapults are easily more valuable than a temple. Even one swordsmen is more valuable than a temple.

I haven't built a temple in a very long time ... am I right that they are almost always useless except for cultural victories?

 

[MPorciusCatoCivver]

I fired up a test game as India where my town, Hyderabad, flipped despite having a temple to the Americans. The Americans built three wonders, so I decided to attack them. The only problem is when I got Miami, before the resistance ended, the city flipped with *my* swordsmen in it, I lost a stack of 8. Ouch ouch ouch. This again at Monarch level 60% Continents.

So yeah, some might say it's useless to build culture, but I *always* build culture when there's an AI nearby. Such events are always a warning.

So for now, I'm going to dissent on the mini consent here. It doesn't really matter whether it's Temples or Libraries, btw. Lol. I got so mad I gave up. First lesson - leave the stack outside. Second lesson: rush build culture to avoid major cities flipping. That's all.

 

[tjs282]

An individual city's Culture-count has relatively little bearing on the probability that city will flip.

IIRC, the major factors are
-- the ratio of total Culture between the 2 Civs (so if they've built a lot of Wonders, you will almost always be behind on that)
-- the number of FatCross tiles within foreign borders (yes, Culture-buildings will expand your borders -- but the town won't be "safe" until you own all 20 FC-tiles, so conquest is quicker!)
-- the number of foreign citizens (of the Cultural competitor?) in the city...
-- ...and the degree of unhappiness (a city in disorder is more likely to flip)

 

[justanick]

I just gotta add this, even though it might seem rather pedantic and way too much detail and the likes, but I finally managed to kick in a successful German Monarch Republic.

The key here being: 2 + 2 settler factories with key foodpoints, staying in Despotism up to 800 AD,

You are doing it very wrong. Every turn not spent in a republic is a wasted turn. You should leave Despotism rather in turn 88 - 800 BC than in turn 195 - 800 AD. This delay is insanely wasteful.

pop rushing early temples and libraries, luxuries, FP.

You should not build temples, even when religious. The one content face is offset by the maintenance cost, therefore netting zero. If you need culture use libraries. But donnot overprioritize culture. Being (way) behind on culture is normal if you ever start playing on high difficulty settings such as Sid.

If you actually get into a position where cities of AI flip to you, then this can be an indicator that you choose the difficulty setting too low. The "normal" thing is that you barely not loose cities flipping to AI.

The step from monarch to emperor is not very steep, but the step from emperor to Demigod is. Emperor is the last "easy" difficulty setting.

Donnot ever poprush. Chances are very high that this hurts more than it helps. You do want your population to grow and prosper, not to destroy it. This is more obvious in a republic because each citizen working a proper tile is more productive than in lesser government types.

Having about 40% luxury rate is a proper measure until either trading or military expansion secures you more luxury goods. With markets you can have 20 happy faces from luxury goods. Therefore in the long run you donnot need tempels.

One thing that might help me decide if I go Monarchy-Commie or Republic is luxuries, if I have few, it's safer to stay the Commie route.

No, it does not really matter.

What does matter is the phase between say turns 70 and 140, where in the early republic you need to make the right prioritizations and expand your economy in a fast but also responsible way. You need to grow fast, but you workers need to keep up with the grow while unit support is a severe restriction before cities reach size 7. But this is also the phase of the game where you lay the ground for things becoming much easier henceforth. Once you have say 10 cities of size 10 you will have a strong economy that enabes you to shape the diplomatic landscape and also field a reasonably strong army.

 

[justanick]

An individual city's Culture-count has relatively little bearing on the probability that city will flip.

True:

D=2000, in flip formula

Hey all, I've been trying to track this one down for some time. We all know (or should know) the flip probability formula. P=[(F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty) - G]/D where: P = probability that it will flip this turn F = # foreigners, with resistors counting double T = # working tiles under foreign...

forums.civfanatics.com

 

[Chalito]

I had been away for over a decade myself. It was upon my return to Civfanatics that I discovered the Flintlock C3X mod. Give that a try, it’s the way the game should have been designed in the first place. A bunch of new features that did not exist when we first we’re playing.