CIv -Specific Abilities: Lets let Firaxis know what we want!

[rdwendt]

After having browsed through many forum posts, and thoroughly reviewing the current Civ-specific Abilities chart (found on the official Civilization 3 website http://www.civ3.com), I have come to the conclusion that something needs to be done to the current configuration in order that each civilization is more accurately represented (at least in as much as would be possible with only 6 choices!). As a result, I propose that we try and work out just how the real civ fanatics (no pun intended) would like the abilities to be distributed. To get the ball rolling, I will include a complete list of how I think each civ should be classified. Please feel free to critique my (and hopefully others as replies start to come in) choices, but offer intelligent support for your claims (i.e. give us a history lesson). Here goes nothing. Firaxis, I hope your reading this!

1) I agree with the current configuration (as found on the official Civ 3 website www.civ3.com on 9/8/01) for the following civs:
Aztecs: Militaristic, Religious
Iroquois: Expansionists, Religious
Russions: Expansionists, Scientific
Greeks: Commercial, Scientific
Germans: Militaristic, Scientific
English: Commercial, Expansionists
Egyptians: Religious, Industrious
Zulus: Militaristic, Expansionists
Chinese: Militaristic, Industrious
Japanese: Militaristic, Religious
Indians: Commercial, Religious

2) The Romans should be [Militaristic and Expansionsists]
Reason: The influence of the Roman military in ancient times is indisputable. Militaristic is an obvious selection. But I feel strongly that Expansionists, not Industrious, would better describe their reign. The Roman empire at its zenith permeated several continents, strethching into parts of Africa and making its presence known well within the borders of Asia. It was, for this reason, an "Empire".

3) The Americans should be [Commercial and Industrious]
Reason: The Americans have established their dominance in the world primarily through the strength of their econmic/industrial infrastructure.Throughout all of the wars that the U.S was involved, our ability to produce massive amounts of reliable hardware and military equipment was
supported by the strength and flexibility of our economy. The Americans have been able to integrate industry and economics more effectively than any other civilization in history (for better or worse), and thus should be classified as Comercial and Industrious.

4) The French should be [Commercial and Scientific]
Reason: The influence of French culture (via commerce) is indisputable. They have a reputation for the quality of their art, cuisine, and fashion. Their presence as an academic (hence scientific) nation is misunderstood, but nonetheless important to the history of the world. As an Engineering student, I can attest to the overwhelming influence that French mathematicians (Ampere, Cauchy, Coulomb, D' Alembert,
de Moivre, Descartes, Fermat, Fourier, Lambert, Laplace, Liouville, Navier, Pascal, Poincare, Poisson, Reyneau, Saint-Venant, Savart) and philosophers have had on science and engineering. In fact, I would go so far as to say that no other single culture has produced as many great mathematicians as the French have (at least, in my text books I have found more formulas and theoretical results derived by French scientists than by anyone else).

[This message has been edited by rdwendt (edited September 09, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by rdwendt (edited September 09, 2001).]

 

[viking]

The point of the civ specific abilities should have been to present the player with as choice of playing styles varied as possible by making use of all the possible combinations on the chart. While I think there could have been eight (a previous thread made a good case for this, although I can't remember exactly what they were) we have only six and we will have to do with that. Eight specific abilities would have given more possible combinations and thus more profilation of civs.

But how come the scientific/industrious combination is left out now that the Chinese are militaristic/industrious instead? The whole point in choosing which civilizations to portray in the game should be to present the player with all the possible combinations. If the difference in playing either civ with the same combination of specific abilities is the special unit (which has a limited time of use) and the face of the ruler, then that is not good enough. A good idea has been lost.

[ September 10, 2001: Message edited by: viking ]</p>

 

[LKendter]

I agree. I want to be able to try ALL combinations of the Civ Abilities.

Pity we lost that. Of course, you wonder want the mod-packs will come up with <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

 

[TrailblazingScot]

The British/English should have:<br />1. Industrious (we invented it).

2. Expansionist (our empire on which the sun never set because god didn't trust us in the dark).

3. Commercial (the slave trade, tobacco, cloth etc our empire was to secure our traders rights versus other countries...we even had a trade war called the "Opium War" versus China as their government opposed our selling drugs to them...we also took Hong Kong.

4. Militaristic...our empire was said to be one upon which the blood never fully dried...wiping out ethnic groups was a speciality and opposing the Germans, Spainish and French. Our military heroes our numerous...Sir Richard Grenville, Wellington, Malborough, Nelson and Kitchener...

Our navy ruled the waves built and was ran by the dual power standard...

5. Scientific...Science in Britain can be seen in civ2 from some of the wonders: Isaac Newton's College, Darwins Voyage. Adam Smith's Trading Company...all give their names to some of Britain's great scientists.

You could add a multitude: Faraday, Kelvin, James Hutton (a geology great!), Alexander Graham Bell etc (not to labour the point).

 

[rdwendt]

Thanks for your comments kittenOf choas. You have some excellent points. The British have been outstanding in many of the 6 categories that Firaxis chose to include. I myself debated about the scientific classification of the English, seeing as perhaps the most influential scientist/mathematician was English (Newton). In all fairness, any of the characteristsics you mentioned could have provided a fair representation of the English. I would be happy with all of them.<br /> If I were forced to choose, I would select Expansionist (for obvious reasons) and either commercial/scientific. Even though the industrial revolution was primarily concieved of and nurtured by the English, I dont feel that it applies as well when compared to other cultures (say the Egyptians, for example). Ironically, Great Britain has been the most influental culture of all, having spawned not only the United States, but Canada, modern India, and Australia, despite its rather small homeland. Maybe thats why they say size doesn't matter!<br />In any event, I hope they (Firaxis) consider our ideas, and make wise selections for the civ-specific abilities. In the end, I also hope they have every combination covered, allowing users to take advantage of the new system and "customize" their game style even more.<br />Thanks again to all those who posted.

 

[Solmyr]

In another thread there was a long discussion of the Russian special abilities. I somewhat agree with people who think that Scientific doesn't quite fit. Actually, with the current abilities it is somewhat hard to select one that would clearly fit the Russians best. What I would propose is the creation of a new special ability, "Cultural". Its effects could be something like start with the Code of Laws and generate more culture points. That would fit the Russians fairly well - it's hard to deny the rich Russian cultural heritage.

 

[Napoleon Hitler]

I think there are many civs that you could argue should have all 6 special abilities. For this reason I would just like to be able to choose from the 15 different possible combinations when I play Civ3.

With 16 different civs and 15 different possible combinations, there is no reason why more than 2 should have the same combination of special attributes. Right now there is no Scientific and Industrious civ and no Militaristic and Commercial civ. I would like to see that changed.

You can justify giving any civ almost any 2 attributes you wish because most of the civs have long glorious histories in which they have been the world's most industrious or religious or militaristic or expansionistic or commercial or scientific civ at some point or another. Look at the case made for Britain earlier in this thread as proof of that.

The reason I want to see all 15 possible different combinations in the game is because it will make the AI very diverse. There won't be no 2 civs alike, but there will be only 2 civs alike. In Civ2 you can just change the color and the city names and *poof* you just made the Egyptians the Chinese or vice-versa. It becomes redundant.

I like the changes that Firaxis is making with this coming edition to the Civilization Series, and from an AI and Gameplay perspective, I hope that they utilize all possible 15 combinations of civ-specific capabilities in order to diversify the otherwise repitious AI civs as much as possible.

 

[redsoxrule85]

for all those not in the us, i think they should would fit almost all too(maybe not so much expansion, but they did in earlier times) they are the most scientifically advanced countery in the world(as ive heard), and they definitely are industrious and commercial(commercial more, because many of our factories are in other countries, but ar headquartered in our nation) although, we wouldnt be a religious nation, because our religious values have had stunted growth for quite some time. our military(i dont have to say anything about that) <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> but, if i had to pick, id pick scientific and commercial

dont forget, that china was the most scientific country in exploration times(circa 1200(marco polo) to about maybe 1600)

i have always thought how people who say china is not scientific and i have scoffed at them. russia, i believe, could be scientific(who was one of the first countries in the space race?)

 

[Phorever Phalanx]

One of my ideas in the other thread was to go to 8 abilities - split Militaristic into Offensive and Defensive, and add Agraian, with food production bonuses (Chinese, Egyptians,...).

While I agree this looks like too major a change, you never know! <img src="icon12.gif" border="0">

I do think there should be only two civs with the same combination of attributes, even if historically some don't fit.

While you do always have the opportunity to create custon civs, at least initially I want to try out all the combinations and experience all the art/music.

 

[pansophy]

I think at some point we have to realize that there are two goals here that don't really lend themselves to each other. One is to represent a civ accurately with their specific abilities and the other is to have as many combinations as possible.

It is also impossible to have two abilities represent all points in history for a civ. The US is certainly more commerical than expansionistic in modern times. But, the first half of US history is dominanted by our separation from the English and acquisition of territory and expansion into the West. The country was driven by "manifest destiny" and several separate wars were fought in order to acquire the territory that the US enjoys today. Hard to argue with Expansionist for the Americans in my opinion. Also, our economic success is more about our governmental choice of democracy, relative laisse fare economic policies and free markets _ it really isn't because we are abundantly "commercial". I mean we import most everything and struggle to find a trade balance with anyone.

All that said, I would like to see all the possible combinations represented, even if a civ isn't classified that well.

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: pansophy ]</p>

 

[Napoleon Hitler]

The easiest way for Firaxis to give us every possible combination is to go back to the way they had it set up at first: England and Germany were the same and the Aztecs and Japan were the same. Then all they would have to do is switch Germany to Militaristic and Scientific. After that, only the Aztecs and the Japanese would have the same combination, and all 15 different possible combinations would be available for the AI.

Or they could just switch Persia back to Militaristic and Commercial and switch China back to Scientific and Industrious. That would accomplish the exact same thing and might be easier to do from a programming perspective.