Civ V Modding

[Vordrax]

One of the video interviews described Civ V as being ever better for modding and customization than IV. But with Steam, how is that possible? Unless I'm misunderstanding something the SDK and DLL modifications will be more difficult, if not entirely impossible. (Due to integration of SteamWorks in the game exe, among other reasons).

Although to answer your original question, Half-Life 2. I mean really. Valve cultivates some amazing modding communities, I don't even know why this is a concern.

I too am installing RoM. I'll post my experience when I'm done.

 

[eireksten]

If you encounter any problems, Vordrax, let me know. As I couldn't find any problems with installing that mod for Steam Civ4, I'm a little curious

 

[Commander Bello]

@Commander Bello: So you are in fact afraid that 2K will ruin modding. That still does not make Valve the bad guy here. Also, as they've publicly have announced unprecedented modding capabilities, I still have my hopes up that they won't go to those lengths.

1) 2K will ruin modding: Yes, that is, what I fear.
2) Unprecedented modding capabilities: Technically, this may be true.
3) Valve being the bad guy: Since they are the ones who are handing over the gun to 2K, even when not being the one who shoots, they are.

Fact is, that what technically may be possible, from a legal point of view may be forbidden.
Alas, we are with the question about sold DLC again.

 

[eireksten]

OK, lets just agree to disagree on Valve being the bad guy. If your scenario turns out to be true, I'd most definitely blame 2K and not Valve. Using your analogy; Unless Valve forced 2K into shooting (which there have been no indication that they have), 2K is responsible. Given that handing over the gun (to all those unable/unwilling to understand, that means providing the framework) is legal, which it obviously is.

Still, we don't know yet that this will be a problem. That's all speculation and assumptions. As there are other most moddable games with DLC, we are allowed to have hopes that it will work out.

 

[Vordrax]

If you encounter any problems, Vordrax, let me know. As I couldn't find any problems with installing that mod for Steam Civ4, I'm a little curious

You know, it's been a while since I've actually heard "Baba Yetu" so I rather enjoyed the experience. I've never actually messed with RoM before but I think I might start playing it, I love lots of techs and noticed that it had more starting tech options.

I had no problem- HOWEVER, I did see a potential "problem spot" for inexperienced users. The Civ IV Beyond the Sword folder in Steamapps/common has the vanilla Civ IV file/folder structure. So a user might try put it into ../Steamapps/common/bts/Mods (which would be the vanilla Civ IV Mods folder) when they really need to go to ../bts/beyondthesword/mods. I can see where that might cause minor potential confusion.

 

[Thyrwyn]

@Commander Bello: Would we have been allowed to create a mod which made the Warlord and/or the Great Wall and/or the Mongols available to vanilla civ users? Nope, and I see no reason to consider the Deluxe content any differently.

And, right now we only have two groups of people - those who will get the Deluxe content and those who will not.

With Civ IV we have 3 groups: Vanilla, Warlords, and BTS.

Not seeing a problem, here.

 

[Commander Bello]

@Commander Bello: Would we have been allowed to create a mod which made the Warlord and/or the Great Wall and/or the Mongols available to vanilla civ users? Nope, and I see no reason to consider the Deluxe content any differently.

Here we completely agree.

And, right now we only have two groups of people - those who will get the Deluxe content and those who will not.

With Civ IV we have 3 groups: Vanilla, Warlords, and BTS.

Not seeing a problem, here.

As you are bringing my examples, I guess you have read my posting in which I have split it up in more detail.

Nevertheless, in the field of Civ4 we have been faced with the 2nd group (WL in contrast to vanilla) after 18 months or something like this. The 3rd group came after another 18 months.

In Civ5, we are already starting with 2 groups, and DLC has already been mentioned as this is one of the advertised features of the Steam involvement.

 

[CyberChrist]

And, right now we only have two groups of people - those who will get the Deluxe content and those who will not.

With Civ IV we have 3 groups: Vanilla, Warlords, and BTS.

Not seeing a problem, here.

The problem is that the number of combinations will increase exponentially with the number of released DLCs.

With just 1 DLC (Deluxe) you only get 2 combinations, but already with the second(next) DLC you will already exceed cIV by now having 4 combinations.

This will grow to 8 combinations with 3 DLCs, 16 combos with 4 DLCs, 32 combos with 5 DLCs etc. etc..


Of course this will ONLY be a problem for modders(and mod users) if they indeed do make the DLCs require each person to have purchased each DLC being used (fully or in part) in user mods/scenarios.

However if this is more or less how it is going to work then it certainly will be detrimental to the claim of Unprecedented modding capabilities in ciV.

 

[eireksten]

Of course this will ONLY be a problem for modders(and mod users) if they indeed do make the DLCs require each person to have purchased each DLC being used (fully or in part) in user mods/scenarios.

However if this is more or less how it is going to work then it certainly will be detrimental to the claim of Unprecedented modding capabilities in ciV.

I can't believe for a second that that's going to happen. I'm sure they've implemented the system so that DLC will not divide the community. It's simply too obvious to not have been considered.

 

[Commander Bello]

I can't believe for a second that that's going to happen. I'm sure they've implemented the system so that DLC will not divide the community. It's simply too obvious to not have been considered.

If it really were that obvious, I am astonished that 2KElizabeth didn't have the answer in the drawer.
Since she did not, and since it apparently wasn't just one call to make sure, I am very doubtful.

 

[Chalks]

If it really were that obvious, I am astonished that 2KElizabeth didn't have the answer in the drawer.
Since she did not, and since it apparently wasn't just one call to make sure, I am very doubtful.

She said they had only discussed with her the way the Delux Edition content would be handled so she would go find out how all DLC would be handled to make sure.

You can calm down. She's got several months to get back to us before it actually matters anyway.

 

[Hail]

1) 2K will ruin modding: Yes, that is, what I fear.
2) Unprecedented modding capabilities: Technically, this may be true.
3) Valve being the bad guy: Since they are the ones who are handing over the gun to 2K, even when not being the one who shoots, they are.

Fact is, that what technically may be possible, from a legal point of view may be forbidden.
Alas, we are with the question about sold DLC again.

guns to not kill people: the person pulling the trigger does

probably 2k wanted to go this road all along and was just looking for the medium, and chose steam. it's nice and cool: 90% (maybe more?) of civ5 gamers will download DLC and be happy.

The problem is that the number of combinations will increase exponentially with the number of released DLCs.

With just 1 DLC (Deluxe) you only get 2 combinations, but already with the second(next) DLC you will already exceed cIV by now having 4 combinations.

This will grow to 8 combinations with 3 DLCs, 16 combos with 4 DLCs, 32 combos with 5 DLCs etc. etc..


Of course this will ONLY be a problem for modders(and mod users) if they indeed do make the DLCs require each person to have purchased each DLC being used (fully or in part) in user mods/scenarios.

However if this is more or less how it is going to work then it certainly will be detrimental to the claim of Unprecedented modding capabilities in ciV.

there are two problems: multiplayer and mods. on all else i agree.

you know what! it would not surprise me if Unprecedented modding capabilities will be a DLC itself!

 

[tom2050]

The problem is that the number of combinations will increase exponentially with the number of released DLCs.

With just 1 DLC (Deluxe) you only get 2 combinations, but already with the second(next) DLC you will already exceed cIV by now having 4 combinations.

This will grow to 8 combinations with 3 DLCs, 16 combos with 4 DLCs, 32 combos with 5 DLCs etc. etc..


Of course this will ONLY be a problem for modders(and mod users) if they indeed do make the DLCs require each person to have purchased each DLC being used (fully or in part) in user mods/scenarios.

This is undoubtably terrific for Firaxsis, 2K and Valve... by coming out with an additional 1 Civ every month... they can rely on modders to create civ content requiring these additional civ's... and thus forcing other Civ 5 players to buy the additional DLC in order to play the new mod.

They have even said (the devs) that making Ghandi the leader of Washington will be a very difficult thing to do, but possible. I find it strange that such a simple thing could be made so difficult and complicated. Chances are, they are betting on the mod community to help sell their overpriced-with-limited-content DLC.

 

[CyberChrist]

... they can rely on modders to create civ content requiring these additional civ's...

Not really, I don't see very many modders that would be willing to make a seperate version of their mods for all possible DLC combinations (lets just say 8 versions with 3 DLCs available) - and I seriously doubt that very many serious modders would be willing to invest in all DLCs anyway.

So if the DLCs are going to be locked/protected then creating and making use of mods using content from them is going to come with an added layer of unnecessary hassle and annoyance.

 

[Commander Bello]

you know what! it would not surprise me if Unprecedented modding capabilities will be a DLC itself!

I am pretty sure that this will happen. Think of the SDK for Civ4.

 

[deanej]

The whole "you have three groups now" argument is flawed. It is technically impossible to run a mod from one expansion in another; it won't even load (with a few very minor exceptions). And who still makes mods for vanilla or warlords anyways? The modding scene is on BtS now. And it would be very hard to back-port features from expansions to lower expansions or vanilla anyways, nor would there be much reason to do so - you need a feature from them, make your mod on that expansion (coupled with the way modders move on to the latest expansion, this is the obvious choice). The python and SDK interfaces undergo major changes each expansion anyways (the SDK practically gets rewritten with each patch even!).

BTW: SDK mods work with a DLL. They do not modify the exe, so any SDK issues with civ5 can't be the fault of steam.

 

[Commander Bello]

She said they had only discussed with her the way the Delux Edition content would be handled so she would go find out how all DLC would be handled to make sure.

You can calm down. She's got several months to get back to us before it actually matters anyway.

I may have missed something, but even regarding the DE I haven't seen any clear statement in which regard it might nor might not be used for modding.

As this question if so obviously coming up, I do have some problems in believing that this would be a topic which causes some difficulties in being answered.
Since it is not answered, for me this is a clear indication that the missing answer is not given to have the hype going on.

 

[Vordrax]

I may have missed something, but even regarding the DE I haven't seen any clear statement in which regard it might nor might not be used for modding.

As this question if so obviously coming up, I do have some problems in believing that this would be a topic which causes some difficulties in being answered.
Since it is not answered, for me this is a clear indication that the missing answer is not given to have the hype going on.

DE's and DLC's haven't really interfered with modding before.

Modders, for the most part, target the largest/most likely group. They tend to ignore DLC altogether, since it doesn't change the core components of a game.

This is another reason why I'm not a big fan of DLC. Give me full-featured expansion packs any day. DLC often costs 1/5 the cost of a game or an expansion for a minuscule amount of content. I understand WHY it is done, but it hasn't reached a point that I feel is satisfactory.

EDIT: As far as the "SDK as DLC" nonsense, that is ridiculous paranoia. I have NEVER seen an SDK released as DLC before. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I'm pretty sure it hasn't. "But it MIGHT happen this time." Yes, and we could all be dead from a meteor strike as well. In this house of logic, we deal with potential events that have a reasonable probability of occurring, thank you very much.

 

[tom2050]

You basically rip yourself off from buying a $10 / $15 DLC that contains 1 civ. You might as well burn a few twenties while at it.

I agree with Vordrax, I'll buy expansion packs, but the DLC; no thank you. It all depends on if someone chooses to be fiscally responsible or not.

 

[eireksten]

I may have missed something, but even regarding the DE I haven't seen any clear statement in which regard it might nor might not be used for modding.

As this question if so obviously coming up, I do have some problems in believing that this would be a topic which causes some difficulties in being answered.
Since it is not answered, for me this is a clear indication that the missing answer is not given to have the hype going on.

2KElizabeth have gotten loads of questions, and have already stated she'll try to have them answered in a podcast. So I don't think that means anything.

The obvious solution with regards to modding:
If a mod requires some DLC, then these DLC are required for running this mod. If you've got more DLC than this, they will simply be disabled for that mod. Likely, most mods will ignore DLC in order to reach the largest audience.

Unless I my memory is faulty, I've read somewhere that Firaxis have created (or will create) a packaging system for mods. As they also will host the mods and make them available through the in-game browser, it will be pretty easy for them to ensure that each player have the required DLC when downloading a mod. Hopefully we'll also see automatic installation of mods, so that it'll be easier for everyone.

Other solutions are to simply not allow paid DLC to be used in mods, to let DLC be freely distributable through mods or to let DLC be mods themselves (the last one obviously only if they aren't planning to release much DLC).