Civ V - Small Changes

danaphanous

religious fanatic
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Sep 6, 2013
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There are a ton of small changes that would make this game feel more polished/fun to me.
As I've thought of them for years, why not make a list! Tell me what you guys think!


  1. Retaking your own city should not halve the population
    Spoiler :
    (why would you kill your own pop like any other invader?) This is the main thing that makes losing a city so horrible as it gets halved twice--there should be some collateral but less then this.
  2. After city defenses are reduced to zero, garrisoned units that aren't planes should need to be defeated before the city can be taken.
    Spoiler :
    (Vanishing units? seriously?) For balance the healing of the defenses can stop on the wall/castle/etc. till they are repaired.
  3. Great people should be in a different subclass from workers/settlers/missionaries so they can stack.
    Spoiler :
    It's annoying and pointless that my great people can't move past workers and other peaceful units.
  4. Roads outside your territory should not cost you money.
    Spoiler :
    I understand why they did this to prevent players avoiding their territory for routes, but it makes for some strange things when cities start trading in war and that already has major downsides in build and travel time. It'd be simpler and easier for the player to calculate if it was just roads currently in their territory.
  5. AI on King & Emperor should not start with pottery--give them another free tech.
    Spoiler :
    This is the first free tech given for some reason. Due to how fun religion is and how big an early difference it can make to terrain I think the games would be more varied and fun if they only got this advantage on clearly high levels: immortal+ and it would mean you could have a chance for first pick even without a religious civ or faith natural wonder. it wouldn't make the AI play much worse imho just add more variety and choices to mid-level games. Animal Husbandry, mining, and archery are all advantageous starting techs too.
  6. You should be able to say whatever the AI can say to you.
    Spoiler :
    Besides fairness there are actually some good reasons for this. Ones I'm thinking of: "I see troops near my border, declare war or move away" - appears if they have at least 10 units right on the border (obviously are setting up to attack)
  7. National wonder costs should not go up with number of cities
    Spoiler :
    This one never made sense to me. The national wonder only benefits the city it is built in and it is not any better with more cities and it is already harder just to get all the buildings in a larger empire. Why also make it more expensive to make?
  8. AI should not buy cities from you that have a terrain score below a certain amount
    Spoiler :
    Single island, or ice cities for instance. Instead of buying them and burning them like an idiot. ;) Either that or consider it in what they offer and offer very little for such cities.
  9. You should not be able to make money repillaging tiles you repaired in enemy territory.
    Spoiler :
    would make sense AND fix the horrible pillage/repair abuse that players use to rake in money/hp during war.
  10. City States should be unwilling to make peace for at least 1 turn after DOW.
    Spoiler :
    This would be at least a minor penalty for stealing their workers as it gives the AI time to request you make peace with their friend and gives them time to respond so you can't just steal with a scout. I would also be in favor of this CS being wary to be your friend. Right now the downsides are pretty much nonexistent and they are often your friend later anyway after a short time.
  11. Trades where a friend paid lump-gold are not simply canceled. If you lose the resource/luxury and reconnect later the trade resumes.
    Spoiler :
    Think of it as a debt. They gave you something of permanent, immediate value, you should not be able to break it and get the money for free. War or denouncing the friend to break the friendship should break the debt as it has downsides giving you freedom to choose this route, but not without consequences. You can currently do this abuse on purpose by starting to build a fort, then reconnecting the lux/resource to get free money every 2 turns or so.
  12. ideological unhappiness should only happen if your influence on them is a certain percentage below their influence on you.
    Spoiler :
    Right now it is a threshold system so you can get tanked with -15 unhappiness if they get 10% (exotic) over you even if you are right behind at 9.9% (unknown) over them. Having the unhappiness be a function of how much spread there is in influence would be fairer and make your actions to recover take more immediate effect. I had the idea of: 15%, 30%, 60% spread as the 3 levels of influence.
  13. Once someone is wiped out, the memory of their culture should still remain on the list.
    Spoiler :
    You need to overcome it too if you want to win cultural. You can still stop a cultural win by war but couldn't win one that way making it a purely peaceful VC and more unique. War to bomb musicians can still remain as it actually requires you to be near winning over them. Conquering them still helps as it stops their culture going up but I don't think their influence should disappear. The huns didn't look like great artists just because they conquered Rome. It takes time to impress the people you subjugate so this system would make that heritage and memory effect more realistic.
  14. Cash-buying or faith-buying from a city leaves the thing on 1 turn like a GE.
    Spoiler :
    This used to be a thing in previous civ versions where buying a building left it on 1 turn. What it does is prevent the player from insta-buying a huge army or buying walls-->castle-->arsenal all in one turn for a city under attack. Not only is it realistic and makes even purchases take a small, realistic time, it makes you plan ahead and pay attention more as you can't instantly fix problems in a single turn with the money. Best play smartly and prepare ahead of time! You can still buy each turn or buy in different cities but it makes the response less OP.
  15. AI should consider skip a units turn rather than embarking when trying to get to a city in some war situations
    Spoiler :
    Right now the AI is unable to think of the future much and just tries to get all units to a city via default pathfinding. It results in embarking and crowding during army motion. I think the AI should only consider embarking in enemy territory if the water is not near a city or if the city is already surrounded. It would make their attacks more competitive. Also, if they can reach a city in the same number of turns anyway they should skip a unit outside city range.
  16. AI ranged should evaluate to attack with every hex move rather then only before moving.
    Spoiler :
    It would only require a sub-loop that considers stopping on the planned route to bombard and would fix the AI can't move and then bombard bug.
  17. AI should request Research agreements with ppl higher on tech then them be even.
    Spoiler :
    AI appears to be coded backwards on this to me. RA's benefit the person behind on tech most as it is a part of both civs science output over the next 30 turns. So their behavior of charging YOU if you are ahead makes no sense since they get a great deal more benefit then you do. If AI is an age behind that RA may mean 10 turns progress for them and only 2 for you. If anything they should be paying you to give them all that futuristic research.

You can suggest your own small changes here! Requirements are that they aren't huge changes to the game or wild suggestions. This list is focusing on polishing existing gameplay and addressing abuses/bugs.
 
I'm confused about #5 -- there is no piety tech. Do you mean Pottery, which unlocks granary and shrine?
 
yes, I meant pottery. mb. I noticed looking at the list that as early as King difficulty that's the first tech they get. I realize it is an advantageous tech for religion and quick Great Library but it does take away from the game on higher difficulties leaving less choices imo.

I was thinking maybe this instead:

King free tech: instead of pottery they have animal husbandry
Emperor free tech: instead of pottery and animal husbundry they have animal husbandry and mining
Immortal free tech: instead of pottery, mining, animal husbandry they have mining, animal husbandry, archery
Deity free tech: Deity can stay the same, it is deity after all. I just noticed that on half the difficulties AI has the edge on religion and religion being so nice early it'd produce more varied games if they didn't start with pottery. I still regularly get a religion on immortal but it is a slow chase getting the pantheon and usually subpar choices are left unless I really get a good faith-generating pantheon or lucky ruin/CS strike.
 
The list of AI free techs you have is correct for Civ 5 up to Gods & Kings, but in Brave New World the AI gets even more, like for Immortal they get all first 4 techs:
Spoiler :
Code:
<HandicapInfo_AIFreeTechs>
		<Row>
			<HandicapType>HANDICAP_KING</HandicapType>
			<TechType>TECH_POTTERY</TechType>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			<HandicapType>HANDICAP_EMPEROR</HandicapType>
			<TechType>TECH_ANIMAL_HUSBANDRY</TechType>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			<HandicapType>HANDICAP_EMPEROR</HandicapType>
			<TechType>TECH_POTTERY</TechType>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			<HandicapType>HANDICAP_EMPEROR</HandicapType>
			<TechType>TECH_MINING</TechType>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			<HandicapType>HANDICAP_IMMORTAL</HandicapType>
			<TechType>TECH_MINING</TechType>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			<HandicapType>HANDICAP_IMMORTAL</HandicapType>
			<TechType>TECH_ANIMAL_HUSBANDRY</TechType>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			<HandicapType>HANDICAP_IMMORTAL</HandicapType>
			<TechType>TECH_POTTERY</TechType>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			<HandicapType>HANDICAP_IMMORTAL</HandicapType>
			<TechType>TECH_ARCHERY</TechType>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			<HandicapType>HANDICAP_DEITY</HandicapType>
			<TechType>TECH_MINING</TechType>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			<HandicapType>HANDICAP_DEITY</HandicapType>
			<TechType>TECH_ANIMAL_HUSBANDRY</TechType>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			<HandicapType>HANDICAP_DEITY</HandicapType>
			<TechType>TECH_THE_WHEEL</TechType>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			<HandicapType>HANDICAP_DEITY</HandicapType>
			<TechType>TECH_POTTERY</TechType>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			<HandicapType>HANDICAP_DEITY</HandicapType>
			<TechType>TECH_ARCHERY</TechType>
		</Row>
	</HandicapInfo_AIFreeTechs>
Maybe it only changed to this with the last patch or so, I'm not sure.

Agree with most of your list. The tech thing is of course easy to mod, most things not so, but the devs will only have eye for Civ 6 now, as you'll know.
 
about roads
maybe you shouldnt be able to build roads outside your territory at all.
so to connect cities the player would use harbors or buy land first

also maybe trade units should have an option to create a trade network connection, to link distant cities
 
about roads
maybe you shouldnt be able to build roads outside your territory at all.

also maybe trade units should have an option to create a trade network connection, to link distant cities

What's a 'road' in game terms? Historically, there were very few Roads built outside of individual cities or short distances to the cities, until very late: the free exceptions being 'Royal Roads' in Persia and courier/dispatch rider routes in Asia and, of course, the famous Roman Roads - which were all built well inside Roman Territory. So, no roads outside your territory, until, say, the Tech of Internal Combustion, at which point you start seeing 'access roads' being built to all sorts of out-of-the-way places regardless of who 'controls' the area (Alaskan Highway in WWII, roads into the Himalayas, Hindu Kush, Africa, in the late 19th century etc)

As to Trade Routes - the entire Trade System in Civ needs to be revamped. Right now, Civ V has Two Trade Systems. A 'diplomatic' trade system for trading Resources, which is utterly independent of any route or distance between the two partners and Immune to disruption, except by Declaration of War between them, and a 'normal' or 'generic' Trade System that requires Trade Routes of specific lengths and location and an artificially limited number but only deals in Gold, not any specific resource.

WTH?

I know why it's that way: Resources are too important, especially in the early game - you may absolutely NEED to have access to another Luxury to keep growing, or to Iron or Horses to stay alive (Your nearest neighbors are the Aztecs, Zulus, Assyrians, and Huns - you don't have a lot of choices!). The 'Diplomatic' Trade system is designed to give you options that the terrain and starting position may not give you.

I propose a change in Trade and requirements for Trade.

First, the Civilization does not build Caravans or Cargo Ships. That's the job of individual merchants or coalitions of merchants within the Civilization, not the government. The Gummint's job is to provide the basis for trade - the safe routes, trading posts, and 'infrastructure' for trade. Historically, really necessary goods as far back as the Bronze Age were traded great distances, by using middle men who, in game terms, would be 'Barbarians'. Let's add that.

Each 'Trade Route' is not unitary. Rather, the distance is measured between Trading Posts, of which there can be ANY number between destinations. The distance between individual posts depends on technology and terrain: longer over grasslands or plains, shorter across jungles, tundra, impossible across Mountains. Also much, much longer along rivers or coasts or the sea - boats or even rafts are always faster and cheaper in effort required to move goods until Railroads and Artificially-Powered Movement.

Barbarians, as I've posted before, could be Hostile (current Barbarian mode), Neutral, or Friendly (a Goodie Hut that doesn't disappear on contact. Friendly or Neutral 'Barbarian' camps can act as Trading Posts. Any city not at war with you is also a Trading Post. You can, if necessary, establish Trading Posts outside your own territory: 'Settlements' or 'camps' that may be based on a Worker constructing it, Military Unit garrisoning it, or even a Religious Settlement ('Monastery') providing a waypoint for travelers carrying goodies. Thus, such an independent Post may be established by a Worker, a military unit, or a Great Prophet/Missionary or a Great Merchant (who can establish X number of Posts instead of just one) - but the military unit is permanently stationed as a Caravan Guard/Garrison at Fort Godforsaken and if moved, may break the Route.

An established Trade Route does not consist of a single ship or camel hauling goods. Graphically, it would be indicated by a series of caravans or ships, each representing One Turn's worth of goods/Gold along that route. Barbarians or other raiders ('Pirates', 'Privateers', etc) that 'raid' the route would destroy (and steal) one or more Turn's worth of Route Value, but NOT destroy the entire route - unless they sat right on it for X turns - then the route would automatically try to find an alternative around the 'block'.

All of this would make Trade a Single System, make Trade Routes much less vulnerable to complete destruction, and allow more trade early in the game between close neighbors (who emphasize trade - it still requires resources and effort on your part to set Routes up) and even the occasional really long-range trade route through multiple cities and Posts - Silk Road, anyone?
 
I know why it's that way: Resources are too important, especially in the early game - you may absolutely NEED to have access to another Luxury to keep growing, or to Iron or Horses to stay alive (Your nearest neighbors are the Aztecs, Zulus, Assyrians, and Huns - you don't have a lot of choices!). The 'Diplomatic' Trade system is designed to give you options that the terrain and starting position may not give you.
I don't really know why they got rid of roads as a prerequisite for trading physical goods, but in Civ III that requirement was still there (I don't know about Civ IV), and they were also at risk of barbarian pillages. While those resources were just as important there.
It's absolutely possible to integrate Civ 5's separate trading systems into one system. My theory is they tried to keep this aspect of the game simple for Civ 5, at least initially. Then they had to come up with things for the expansions, they had received a lot of criticism about Civ 5 having been dumbed down to a little war game with little to do for the builder, so they came up with a lot more to do for builders; religion, trade caravans, tourism...

I'm certain the eventual trade route system wasn't planned from the start. Vanilla and Gods and Kings still have river gold. They removed that to accommodate the new trading system. They kept the trade system they had, what you call the 'diplomatic' trade system, but I don't know, I doubt they would have made Civ 5 this way if they had known in advance the way they wanted to go. There was a switch of people being involved with it as well, as you probably know; Jon Schafer out, Ed Beach in.
 
there are actually 3 systems - trade network, trade routes and deals.

First, the Civilization does not build Caravans or Cargo Ships. That's the job of individual merchants or coalitions of merchants within the Civilization, not the government. The Gummint's job is to provide the basis for trade - the safe routes, trading posts, and 'infrastructure' for trade.
the game is actually not about government. the player is rather a spirit of the nation or something like that.

trade post idea is interesting
i also think it will allow for some international market system
how do you think effects of trade should be evaluated?
 
1. I think if a city is still in resistance, recapping it should not reduce population.
2. My understanding is that these units surrender. Most real soldiers don't actually fight to the last man in a battle they know they've lost.
3. I agree.
4. I agree on the condition that these roads don't increase movement speed or let you cross bridges over unowned rivers. The maintenance represents road repairs. No maintenance = no movement bonus. The city connections are still okay though.
5. Attila starts with Animal Husbandry so I think they made it pottery because of that. I don't see any real problem with this as long as the AI still picked the best tech to start with.
6. Yes.
7. I think it's because it's the national bit of it. It does only affect the city it's built in, but I think that's because otherwise national wonders would be OP. Pretend that it's because they need to coordinate with all the cities or something.
8. Reasonable
9. Why? My workers magically don't know how to fix a farm? The danger of working in enemy territory is clearly the fact that enemy units can steal your workers. Maybe you should only get gold from pillaging tiles that were being worked recently.
10. I think CSs should still be willing to make peace instantly if they would be afraid of your military. I think the fear aspect is why they make peace instantly currently, because they're tiny and the Civs are big.
11. That's not how that works. Debt isn't material, it only exists because we agree to it. Declaring war is clearly a breech of trust between two civs. It's one civ voiding all deals and debts with another. If you decide you don't want to pay your debts you shouldn't have to. If this bothers you, I'd suggest instead making AIs less likely to offer lump sums, or only with players they trust/like a lot.
12. On this topic, tourism/ideological spread should only be possible between civs with relationships. North Korean citizens have no clue what the rest of the world is like, and it's certainly not because North Korea's culture is so massive.
13. What are you talking about? Once a civ is wiped out, there aren't any citizens of that civ left. The only remnant of their culture is the influence THEY had over other civs, and that already doesn't compete with your pressure.
14. I don't like this idea but it's still reasonable.
15. yes
16. yes
17. no opinion
 
9. Why? My workers magically don't know how to fix a farm? The danger of working in enemy territory is clearly the fact that enemy units can steal your workers. Maybe you should only get gold from pillaging tiles that were being worked recently.

it's only the fact that you can pillage and get gold from farms you yourself repaired that is weird. If they took this out there is no issue.

11. That's not how that works. Debt isn't material, it only exists because we agree to it. Declaring war is clearly a breech of trust between two civs. It's one civ voiding all deals and debts with another. If you decide you don't want to pay your debts you shouldn't have to. If this bothers you, I'd suggest instead making AIs less likely to offer lump sums, or only with players they trust/like a lot.

I think what I describe is exactly how debts work. It's a written agreement to comply by something in return for a loan of something else. I already say in the spoiler the deal is permanently canceled by a declaration of war. The only change here I'm suggesting is that if they paid lump gold for a 30-turn deal and you canceled it in 2 turns by losing your resource you should owe them the rest of the 28 turns after you get it again if you are still friends. This is like a deferred debt. If not this is a cheap way to steal loads of gold from friends since you can manually disconnnect your own resources by starting to build a fort. This is the only thing I'm suggesting. You can obviously still void the deal by denouncing them to end the friendship or declaring war as real debts are often not payed back if relationships between civs sour.


13. What are you talking about? Once a civ is wiped out, there aren't any citizens of that civ left. The only remnant of their culture is the influence THEY had over other civs, and that already doesn't compete with your pressure.

What I'm getting at is just because Rome fell doesn't mean their memory did. Which is basically what that accumulated culture bar that you are overcoming with your tourism represents. It's their heritage. If you wipe a civ out I don't think their culture bar should disappear from the civs you have to influence for this reason. They may be gone but the memory of their accomplishments is not. You can think of it this way: The huns destroyed Rome but the citizens they conquered definitely didn't think they were paragons of culture just because they conquered Rome. They remembered Rome as superior and the Huns looked like savages. :) So in this situation they huns would never have won a culture victory in real life but by Civ V rules you can simultaneously win conquest and culture since they say the opinions of conquered citizens doesn't matter in impressing the world with your culture. It's not like the conquered cities automatically adopt your ways you know

I hope the italicized comments help clarify. thanks for your input. :)
 
1.)It should reduce population, but not by half. As tanks are rolling in, and infantry are firing on occupied forces (or, for earlier in the game, the sky darkens as indirect arrows are unleashed), there's going to be cross-fire and collateral damage. But agree there should be some accounting for the fact that you're going to be a lot more weary of your own civilians than a conqueror would.

2.) I also have qualms with this mechanic, but not the same. I find it more frustrating that the unit in the city is untouchable - It's like the kid on the playground touching the slide and yelling, "base!" And if this unit is ranged, it can be an extra free attack. And the worst game mechanic is allowing one ranged land unit to fire (with impunity), one ranged naval unit to fire (with impunity) and the city bombard (with impunity.) Defeats the purpose of 1UPT. I suggest the opposite of what you're suggesting; if a unit is in the city, the attacker hits the unit first and only does damage after the unit is killed.

3.)Never found this to be that problematic. The problem that I have is archaeologists should be able to stack with units they are not at war with. This kills your ability to "claim" dig sites by placing a military unit over it before your archaeologist is ready (which is a rather cheesy tactic) and removes the headache of trying to get a site in CS territory when they have 8 units that are playing musical chairs between rounds, just moving back and forth, keeping you waiting for that one lucky turn when no one is standing on the site.

4.)eh... I think a better rule would be that you are allowed to remove any road that you are paying maintenance for, whether it's in your territory or not.

5.)Nope. Sorry, that's the price of playing at higher levels, and if you start the game insistent on founding a religion, your choices are picking a civ that gets a bonus to founding, or playing a lower difficulty level. Posts on the forum also suggest that some of the people with more mastery of the game and are playing on higher levels need to learn how to play through a game where they didn't found a religion. The AI needs pottery to be one of the free techs because it leads to writing and calendar, too.

6.) Agreed

7.) As the game was in Vanilla, disagree - smaller empires needed a bonus. As the game is now, definitely. Also think that building prerequisites should switch from "all cities" to "all cities or 4 cities, whichever is fewer."

8.) not concerned. If a player considers selling a worthless city too cheesy, don't do it.

9.) but then they have to change the pillage mechanic - wartime shouldn't just be for when you're ready to go on a conquering spree, there should also be a way to do what the Vikings did. Pillaging tiles is the closest that there is in this game, and there should be a way for "raiding" as opposed to "conquering" to be much more profitable. Every 3rd or 4th game I play, I get the craving, "man, I wanna play a Denmark game and just DoW everyone on site and eternally, and create an economy based on raiding runs." Then I remember that the game mechanics don't really allow for this.:cry:

10.) not that big of a deal. If the minimum duration is longer, it just leads players from "single worker-steal mode" to "experience farming mode." I think a more appropriate change would be for the specific CS you declared war on to have a different disposition towards you and more hesitance to befriending and allying with you, instead of the CS's collectively lowering their resting point. It also doesn't make sense that, for example, Riga is questing me to bully Zanzibar, but when I declare war on Zanzibar, take two of their workers, defeat half their military, and pillage their lands, Riga not only isn't happy with this, their disposition with me goes down.

11.)If I'm understanding this right, it changes all lump sum trades to GPT trades. Since we already have GPT trades, it removes lump sum from the game. Not a fan.

12.)agreed.

13.)Nah. I like the current way. Science, Dom, and Diplo Victories are essentially the same from Settler to Deity. Culture is different, though. Lower levels are about turtling, watching borders, building wonders, and bee-lining tourism buildings. Deity is about targeting the culture civs and taking their tourism generators, if someone is out of reach, annihilation is a backdoor option. The mid-tier levels (for me, Immortal is the sweet spot), is where you can sway from one strategy to the other and/or incorporate elements of both.

14.)Again, more concerned with the opposite. I want a GE who qualifies for building the wonder in one turn to get it instantly. Absolute most annoying thing is spending a GE on a wonder, having someone else finish it that very turn, and having it cash out. For this reason, I save before GE-bulbing, as this is, IMO, the single most justifiable circumstance to reload, and is such because of a poor game mechanic.

15.)Symptomatic of a bigger problem - the AI not understanding proper routing strategy and risks. Finding a way to fix this will inherently fix the embarkation problem.

16.)meh - if this was really that big of a problem, we wouldn't focus-fire the way we do, especially on defense.

17.) probably should have been changed when they changed the formula for RAs. But, if my understanding is correct, the change went from "rich getting richer" to "both sides get the same amount." If both sides get the same amount, neither side should pay more. Rather, they should consider how advanced the two parties involved in the research agreement are in comparison with the rest of the world, and research agreements between two advanced nations should be considerably more than one between two third world nations trying to make much simpler discoveries.

As far as my suggestions, have to give it some thought. The one thing that screams out at me is the ranged unit's ability to fire with impunity, especially since they aren't that much weaker than melee units of the era. Every advanced player plays the same way because ranged units are SOOOO much more effective. I think I got a great fix for it though:

Spoiler :
1.) One full strength melee unit, or two melee units who combined have 100 HP and can both attack a ranged unit on the same turn (i.e. are adjacent with 1 MP left) can instead capture the ranged unit.
 
1.)It should reduce population, but not by half. As tanks are rolling in, and infantry are firing on occupied forces (or, for earlier in the game, the sky darkens as indirect arrows are unleashed), there's going to be cross-fire and collateral damage. But agree there should be some accounting for the fact that you're going to be a lot more weary of your own civilians than a conqueror would.

Fair enough, updating my post

2.) I also have qualms with this mechanic, but not the same. I find it more frustrating that the unit in the city is untouchable - It's like the kid on the playground touching the slide and yelling, "base!" And if this unit is ranged, it can be an extra free attack. And the worst game mechanic is allowing one ranged land unit to fire (with impunity), one ranged naval unit to fire (with impunity) and the city bombard (with impunity.) Defeats the purpose of 1UPT. I suggest the opposite of what you're suggesting; if a unit is in the city, the attacker hits the unit first and only does damage after the unit is killed.

I thought of this as well, but this issue is they can keep spamming 1-turn units so you can't touch the city if this is the case without a large army. Also walls/defenses ARE supposed to protect the unit some imo so I'm still in favor of taking down defenses THEN dealing with the unit. However, collateral damage from a bombardment is fair. Maybe there could even be a special unit/attack that targets the garrison later.

3.)Never found this to be that problematic. The problem that I have is archaeologists should be able to stack with units they are not at war with. This kills your ability to "claim" dig sites by placing a military unit over it before your archaeologist is ready (which is a rather cheesy tactic) and removes the headache of trying to get a site in CS territory when they have 8 units that are playing musical chairs between rounds, just moving back and forth, keeping you waiting for that one lucky turn when no one is standing on the site.

There are lots of classes of units that could stack without hurting 1 UPT gameplay so they don't route off roads to avoid each other, etc. It's just weird. Personally I'd be in favor of religious civilians being stackable with workers, and GP as well.

4.)eh... I think a better rule would be that you are allowed to remove any road that you are paying maintenance for, whether it's in your territory or not.

5.)Nope. Sorry, that's the price of playing at higher levels, and if you start the game insistent on founding a religion, your choices are picking a civ that gets a bonus to founding, or playing a lower difficulty level. Posts on the forum also suggest that some of the people with more mastery of the game and are playing on higher levels need to learn how to play through a game where they didn't found a religion. The AI needs pottery to be one of the free techs because it leads to writing and calendar, too.

I suggested they keep it on Deity--I'm fine with the highest levels having the difficulty. I just don't like that it is the first free tech. If it was the 2nd or 3rd free tech at least the problem wouldn't present as early as King. To be fair I do play on immortal and I usually get a decent religion anyway, but it is annoying chasing the pantheon chain sometimes. I feel religion, inherently, should be more even. I'd be happier if they got any other bonus but that one because religions make a game fun and diverse and you lose something if you don't get to play with them.

6.) Agreed

7.) As the game was in Vanilla, disagree - smaller empires needed a bonus. As the game is now, definitely. Also think that building prerequisites should switch from "all cities" to "all cities or 4 cities, whichever is fewer."

Wide empires get other kinds of bonuses. I think national wonders were a way of buffing smaller play so I'm fine with the prereqs. It's just the scaling cost that makes little sense. In my wider games a national wonder can take as long as building Leaning Tower which means I don't have time for many of them till later.

8.) not concerned. If a player considers selling a worthless city too cheesy, don't do it.

I already choose not to do it. To clarify I dont' want the mechanic removed just think the AI shoul d be better at evaluating the value. They shouldn't pay 37 gpt for a worthless ice city and they sometimes due just on the territory score or however they evaluate it.

9.) but then they have to change the pillage mechanic - wartime shouldn't just be for when you're ready to go on a conquering spree, there should also be a way to do what the Vikings did. Pillaging tiles is the closest that there is in this game...

Totally agree. Pillaging is awesome and shouldn't change in principle. It just doesn't make sense that you can repillage a farm you rebuilt. I'd also be fine with just disabling the repillaging but I presume that would require changes to the base game instead of a simple fix.

10.) not that big of a deal. If the minimum duration is longer, it just leads players from "single worker-steal mode" to "experience farming mode." I think a more appropriate change would be for the specific CS you declared war on to have a different disposition towards you...

This "wariness" already happens after 2 attacks and they are left on -60 reputation with you so I think they already tried to do what you say. I still think the peace on the same turn thing is weird and unnatural. They do it even if they could destroy that lame scout you captured with which is why I'm in favor of you needing to wait 1-2 turns. Then you'd have to use a real military unit or a smarter snipe and it wouldn't be so easy and inconsequential. I'd also be in favor of attacked CS not being your friends/allies for longer (-120 maybe) but the real issue to me is that you can peace out same turn which means you can always steal that worker with anything that comes by no consequences but a few turns of rep. Which hardly matters with some CS and the length of the early game. They'll be back to neutral and allies in no time.

11.)If I'm understanding this right, it changes all lump sum trades to GPT trades. Since we already have GPT trades, it removes lump sum from the game. Not a fan.

Not exactly. The difference is that a lump trade gives you the money right away whereas gpt gives it over time. I'm just adding commitment to the deal to make it less abuseable. It makes sense that if you are still friends with the friend you'd honor the deal. You agreed to 30 turns of horses, why should you get away with only 2 if you recover your horses a few turns later? If you lose friendship status or attack the other player you can still get off without paying in my system (see fine notes)

12.)agreed.

13.)Nah. I like the current way. Science, Dom, and Diplo Victories are essentially the same from Settler to Deity. Culture is different, though. Lower levels are about turtling, watching borders, building wonders, and bee-lining tourism buildings. Deity is about targeting the culture civs and taking their tourism generators, if someone is out of reach, annihilation is a backdoor option. The mid-tier levels (for me, Immortal is the sweet spot), is where you can sway from one strategy to the other and/or incorporate elements of both.

A lot of players prefer it this way. It does seem to conflict with the idea of a culture win in my mind as you are supposed to impress the world and I doubt the citizens of that great culture you just subjugated suddenly love and are impressed by you. But from a gameplay standpoint I understand you. You don't want to click through 50 peaceful turns on deity to win. Domination would still help though as it stops their culture from climbing further. It just wouldn't mean an instant win which would be more realistic. Heritage and memory takes time to fade. :)

14.)Again, more concerned with the opposite. I want a GE who qualifies for building the wonder in one turn to get it instantly. Absolute most annoying thing is spending a GE on a wonder, having someone else finish it that very turn, and having it cash out. For this reason, I save before GE-bulbing, as this is, IMO, the single most justifiable circumstance to reload, and is such because of a poor game mechanic.

This makes sense from an ease of gameplay perspective but not for realism. If you hurry something it should still consume the production of the city for that turn. It only makes sense. However, to prevent the loss of a hurried wonder, maybe what can happen is the buildings get left on 0 turns and you get them after you click continue at the end of your turn instead of after the AI. This effectively limits the purchases to 1/turn as I want but means you can't lose wonders. It's like it took a turn but you are guaranteed to get it.

15.)Symptomatic of a bigger problem - the AI not understanding proper routing strategy and risks. Finding a way to fix this will inherently fix the embarkation problem.

I know, but that's a big problem, I was focusing on smaller bits that could possibly be fixed in a quick patch to improve the issue. (see title of thread :) )

16.)meh - if this was really that big of a problem, we wouldn't focus-fire the way we do, especially on defense.

17.) probably should have been changed when they changed the formula for RAs. But, if my understanding is correct, the change went from "rich getting richer" to "both sides get the same amount." If both sides get the same amount, neither side should pay more. Rather, they should consider how advanced the two parties involved in the research agreement are in comparison with the rest of the world, and research agreements between two advanced nations should be considerably more than one between two third world nations trying to make much simpler discoveries.

It is the same amount of beakers, however those beakers mean far more to the AI that is behind. If I recall the boost is the sum of the average bpt for 2 turns from each civ. But relatively-speaking that could mean 10 turns for the behind guy and 2-3 turns for you. This is why their propensity to make you pay for deals when you are ahead makes little sense. I'd be in favor of them always being flat as well but if they were going to charge someone it should be the behind guy since they get a massive benefit from the more advanced civ. irl the current system would be like some backwards nation like Sudan charging us to open our labs and research to them. That makes no sense as they get virtually all the benefit and are contributing very little. But this is what every backwards AI insists on when they are behind and ask for an RA. It definitely seems coded backwards :)

How would ranged capture fix the problem btw? Destroying archers makes sense to me, capturing siege would be reasonable though as it is a piece of equipment and it happened all the time in real wars. This is really why they should allow siege to stack with other units and allow them to be capturable in my opinion. The other unit would use it's turn to protect & fire the siege. If we revamp siege in this way I think we also need some new classes that specialize in attacking armies/units rather then solely fortifications.
 
Also need to consider whether we're approaching the changes from the perspective of game-play or logical application/historical accuracy. Considering the age of the game, most of us who still play,well, too-many-hours a week, are doing so because of the gameplay. I don't mean to discount the value of role-playing in a game like this, but my focus is more on the game-play mechanics. It's a great and fun game, but there are several loopholes and several elements that seem omitted. From your initial post, it seems that you are on the same page as me with this (though others may differ.)

I think the proposed ranged capture mechanic would address both issues. From a role-play/logic prospective, I'm thinking of the role that the units play and, equally importantly, the type of person who would sign up for that role. As for the warrior/swordsman - the guy with the 60 lb. bastard sword who's delightfully screaming in orgasmic rage as every upper-body movement causes limps to fly and more of the scenery to be painted red... yeah, he's gonna keep fighting when there's 20 of you and 1 of him... and he's had one arm and both legs cut off. The other guys, though, who fire en masse when you're too far away to do anything to them, and will continually move either uphill or away to keep you in their range but themselves out of yours, I think when these people find themselves surrounded by the guys with the bastard swords, they're gonna surrender pretty quick. And from a gameplay perspective, it forces a player to have more of a mixed military. The way it is now, you really only need one melee unit for capture and the rest of the army is ranged. There is the option for a meatshield wall in front of your archers, but that isn't really necessary - you'll lose a few more units but mop up everything between turns. As it is. melee units give and take damage on both offense and defense whereas ranged units (vs. melee) give and take damage on defense, but only give damage on offense which is SO SO SO overpowered. They need a pivotal weakness to compensate for this glaring advantage.

As to the debate about culture-tourism (point 13), I think we just have to accept that this iteration of Civ has some of the worst victory parameters of the series. Space is alright - straightforward and logical. Diplo is the most absurd as it has almost nothing to do with diplomacy, it's a slightly faster space victory with a side order of decent economy. Dom is so-so, I'm glad it doesn't default to complete kills as that would make it so much more tedious. Even as it is, though, dom games are usually pretty clear cut after you take your 3rd capital, which means your spending a whole lotta' turns, each of which moving a whole lotta' units, towards an inevitable end. I can't decide whether I like the vanilla option or the BNW option better. I don't like the vanilla version because if you lose your capital at any point, you are forever exempted from winning dom. However, it was much less tedious than the current method, which has you spending so much time "after the fact." And culture - well, it's better than the old way, when completing 5 trees let you make spaghetti monsters that whisked you away to happy lands. But the tourism vs. culture element is pretty weak and VERY underdeveloped. Things like hotels and airports having such a drastic effect - airports get people there, and hotels give them the accommodations, but these aren't the reason why tourists go to a location. Things like Disney attractions (Florida), food and museums (Chicago, IL - hey look at that, multiple museums in one city, can't do that in civ), geological wonders (Arizona), and most importantly, pleasant spots for vacationing, in terms of weather, and scenery (Hawaii, the Carolinas, and on and on.) If anything, Culture should be the hybrid VC, incorporating elements of economy and culture. Oops - rambling....

...but yes, culture VC may have some flaws with the logic, but I still prefer the way it is from a game-play perspective as it's the only one that has different approaches to reach the same goal, and some approaches work better not only at different difficulty levels but also in different in-game situations. As such, I prefer it as is without your proposed adjustment.
 
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