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Civ VI Promotions and Promotion Trees

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Amrunril, Sep 13, 2016.

  1. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

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    Over the course of various previews, we’ve now seen a number of promotion options and two complete trees (visible on Well of Souls. I’m surprised not to have seen much discussion of them, as their design seems to have clear strengths but also a number of significant shortcomings, so I thought I’d start a thread with some of my thoughts.

    The first thing that occurs to me when I look at the promotions is that individually, I like all of them. There isn’t a bland promotion in the tree. And I think that’s a problem. Having options to specialize units is important, but if every promoted unit is a specialist, specialization ceases to be, well, special. This would be one thing if there were a large variety of different specializations, making each individual one rare, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. Each unit ultimately has access to seven options, but the links between the promotions are significantly limiting and sometimes make little sense. There’s no reason that urban warfare should be more closely linked to crossing rivers than to scaling cliffs, for instance, nor for having forest/jungle scouts being inherently less suited to guerilla warfare than hill scouts. Finally, each tree has only a single capstone, which seems to me to further limit options and promote homogenized specialization.

    This isn’t to say that the promotion system is all bad. As I mentioned before, I think that all of the individual promotions are flavorful and have the potential to create interesting gameplay. However, the push towards forced specialization, combined with an unnecessarily limited number of actual options seems likely to keep them from working to their full potential, and I hope that this will be addressed, if not at release, in future patches and expansions.
     
  2. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    For Recon units there's quite good choice between scout and commando lines. These are great specializations.

    Melee promotions seem to have different form of specialization. In general Amphibious is used more often than Commando, but Commando could pass otherwise impassable tile borders, so it could be extremely useful to blockade some cities. Generally you need 1-2 of them.

    For the rest of unit types we only know the first level of promotion, which is not specialization yet (you could go both paths from here). so it's just not enough info. And, of course, without actually playing the game we can't see the usages of different promotions.
     
  3. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

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    Yes, I do think the tier II and III recon promotions work well as specialization paths. What doesn't make sense is for one to be linked to hills and the other to forests, which (unless I'm misreading the tree) makes it arbitrarily more difficult to create jungle guerrillas or hill focused recon units.
     
  4. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    The first tier of promotions opens both trees. So you could go from Ranger to Guerilla, for example. See the connecting line on the image:
    Spoiler :
     
  5. Haig

    Haig Deity

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    Do you think that Musketman and Infantry get different promotion tree than Melee promotion tree?

    The melee tree has some promotions that arent very useful later, like Lvl 3 promotion that gives power against anti-cavalry units.
     
  6. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Yes, it's possible. Zweihander promotion name suggests it to be strictly melee. We don't lnow how promotions live with unit upgrades, though.

    Again, this depends on how promotions are handled on upgrades.

    We know what both Warriors and Swordsmen have bonus vs. Spears and Pikes, so increasing the bonus looks logical. But it means the promotions are likely to somehow "reset" if unit changes class on upgrade. Actually it could be the same system used for handling promotions on building corps/armies/fleets.
     
  7. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

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    If that's how it works, then I do think that's a good desig for the recon tree. I can't say the same about the melee tree, though. Even putting aside any unnecessary linkages between the tier II and III promotions, the only options for tier II (which every unit will have to take, at the latest, with its third promotion) are specializing in amphibious assault and specializing in scaling cliffs (which in the context of Civ VI means coastal cliffs). There's no option to appeal to units doing anything besides river crossings and coastal landings.
     
  8. BrokenBokken

    BrokenBokken Warlord

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    I feel like river crossing is useful for every unit. I'm not sure about cliff climbing though.
     
  9. RohirrimElf

    RohirrimElf Emperor

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    There is not enough specialisation indeed. I`ll expect to hear more about this in the future (Or civ 5 mods) So i`m not that worried about this.
     
  10. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Well, I'd say, the promotion line of Amphibious/Urban Warfare is the default one. Moving from sea, crossing rivers and attacking districts is the core of war. Commando/Zweihander looks weaker, but it allows climbing cliffs which no other unit can do. I'll probably have a couple of such units to perform blockade of cities near cliffs. Unless those promotions are rebalanced, of course.
     
  11. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    I can see what you're saying. Why tout the highly specialized US Navy SEALS (for example) if every third unit that's been around a while can do the same thing?
     
  12. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Actually, I think there is almost too much specialization through promotions, I'm glad they reduced that.

    Also in the melee tree can go from either level II promotion to either level III
     
  13. El Cesar

    El Cesar Chieftain

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    image.jpg
    Zweihander and Urban Warfare are unlocked no matter which second level promotion you choose. For the Melee promotion tree the specialization is at level 1, so you can have a Battlecry-Commando (which sounds like a Viking Warrior that can scale cliffs) or a Tortoise-Amphibious. And then you can chosse either Zweihander of Urban Warfare as you can see in the image.
     
  14. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Thanks! Arioch site doesn't have that image and I forgot it's planned differently. I'm not sure I understand the reasons for options here.
     
  15. beorn

    beorn Prince

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    The melee promotion tree is maybe the only thing in the game I am unhappy to see, at this point.

    Really, most units ought to go from being green all around, to competent all around, to tougher all around. It's fine to have options to specialize units instead, but from what I see here, a newly created unit and a very experienced unit of the same type will often be roughly equal in an engagement. Or, at most, the one Battle Cry +7 will separate them. (Unless Battle Cry can be chosen more than once?)

    That does not strike me as realistic, nor does it strike me as good gameplay design.
     
  16. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    I agree, these promotions feel far too RPG for me.

    A unit in Civ is a division level number of troops, having them all specialised seems silly. Honestly, I'd prefer for each combat type to have three lines of promotions:
    1) Makes the unit better at its inherent speciality (ie, bonus vs spears for swords, increased ranged attack for archers, ect...)
    2) Makes the unit better at its weak point (increase range defence for melee, combat vs spears for cavalry, ect...)
    3) Improves logistics (better healing, increased mobility in rough terrain, amphibious/cliff scaling, ect)
     
  17. dturtle1

    dturtle1 Prince

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    I do like scout promotion tree but the melee is a bit underwhelming.
    I do like the above design framework though Lord Olleus.
    Instead of Strength/Weakness/Utility though i was leaning more towards Role/Synergy/Utility.
    That way a Units Weakness stays weak, emphasising Rock/Paper Scissors whilst still allowing the player some variation with Synergy.
     
  18. Big J Money

    Big J Money Emperor

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    Viewed as a tree, it lacks any cohesive design, sure. It's a very bland looking system. I don't get an RPG vibe at all, which should have some sense of verisimilitude.

    But I'm not upset since promotions aren't what make or break Civ, and I'm altering my expectations to see promotions simply as nice bonuses troops get with experience. And like you mentioned, they each look pretty effective (we'll have to see about cliffs).
     
  19. plasmacannon

    plasmacannon Emperor

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    The number of promotions does seem to be getting fewer and fewer. :(
    The fewer the options, the more we will see the same promotions every game. That gets tiresome sooner.

    Here is an example of what's in the Civilization 4 Realism Invictus Mod below:
    "• Over 80 new conventional promotions, including new promotions exclusive to naval units; this doesn’t cover the traditions and doctrines, providing another 60 unique advantages to your units.
    • Over 200 new leaders for existing civs, each with his own personality (3 of them has been since independently added to BtS)."
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=411799

    Maybe, they need to create a basic setting for new players, and an advanced setting for players who want a game with more options. It's getting to go backwards with every new version of this game. Then wait until a group of modders with the same frustrations develops a mod to do what could have been done from the beginning.
     
  20. homan1983

    homan1983 King

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    Less is more. Promotions are VERY powerful now and fewer in between. So when your unit gets a promotion, you will FEEL it.

    It is far better than the previous version where you would get +15% in rough, another +15% in rough and another +15% in rough terrain, with each additional % being less powerful than the last.

    Consider that on an 11 strength spearman a 15% bonus is +1.6 combat strength and only in a particular terrain. Now, the first promotion gives +7 attack vs. both melee and ranged units.

    Or amphibious upgrade that not only lets you attack over rivers without penalty (and rivers are much more numerous now due to the housing issue) but also move over them as well.

    In civ5, the problem was that the early promotions were crap, and then you would find 1 lategame promotion (if u ever got to it) that changed the game completely and ruined the combat system. Basically once an archer got +1 range and +1attack per turn it could kill any unit at 3 range and siege cities as well. The unit became some uncounterable balance monstrosity where high level play pretty much boiled down to:

    - build some archers
    - fight with civs/city states until they upgrade to these end promotions
    - roll over every city, civ and unit on the map.

    Since promotions are now more powerful, it seems they're also giving them out much less freely, barracks, which used to give 1 upgrade for free now gives +25% experience earned.
     

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