Civ4 is politically correct - History NOT

[Rots]

I wonder what would happen if Germany discovers Judism first... might try that and declare war on myself.

I believe the people they have used are those that achieved
"greatness" (through whatever means) and not failure.

 

[paperchase417]

Even though I would LOVE to have my workers build a concentration camp, and deport that little (insert foreign religion icon) out of my (insert national religion) city and get a few extra production out of that tile.

they should add a stat in for crime that plays on production and finance. Like the corruption stat from Civ 3

I believe the people they have used are those that achieved
"greatness" (through whatever means) and not failure.

Bismarck and Napoleon got their asses kicked, Stalin lucked out by dying before Russia got beat without even going to war. Montezuma was killed, possibly by his own people. Julius Caesar was murdered by some of his closest friends.

 

[Psyringe]

The first Civ game that includes a concentration camp would be the first Civ game that I won't buy.

There are lines that should not be crossed.

 

[K.F. Huszár]

The first Civ game that includes a concentration camp would be the first Civ game that I won't buy.

There are lines that should not be crossed.

Dear Psyringe,

That's pure political correctness what you said.

If you play Civ4 you never research Fascism tech, do you? ))
When you played Civ3 you never applied Fascism as a Government, did you? ))

Congratulations.


Pure political correctness = pure stupidity

Otherwise, I understand the marketing policiy of Firaxis for the reasons they not included Hitler. But I do not understand why they included Mao and Stalin - it's cynism.

To all who think it is just a game: yes it is. But a series of such tiny little things DO HAVE impact on people. /e.g. this situation: Hitler not, Stalin yes/

AND ONCE AGAIN: IT IS NOT AGAIN THE "HITLER IN THE GAME" STUFF.

 

[K.F. Huszár]

I take it East Asian history is not one of your areas of expertise... That example is just funny!

Sympathy between civs grows over time and is subject to historical fluctuations. Two civs may be closely related and yet thoroughly despise each other (e.g. English and French for much of their history). It has little or nothing to do with common origin.
You're right about the lack of religious deportations, but religion has just been incorporated in a civ game. Maybe civV will have a more complicated model for state religion policies.

Seleukos Helios, you are right, i am not a special expert on Eastern Asian history. But i know that Chinese and Japanese people had some kind of racial and cultural disrespect against the "white devils".

And I know that the "boxer-revolt" was crushed by a common European force - this white armies marched against the "yellow danger".

I could cite more examples from history. But i only cite that in Civ3 there were some groups of civs (Europeans, Far-Eastern etc.), and in these groups civs had some more respect toward each other.

 

[Yeekim]

Dear Psyringe,

That's pure political correctness what you said.

If you play Civ4 you never research Fascism tech, do you? ))
When you played Civ3 you never applied Fascism as a Government, did you? ))

Congratulations.


Pure political correctness = pure stupidity

Otherwise, I understand the marketing policiy of Firaxis for the reasons they not included Hitler. But I do not understand why they included Mao and Stalin - it's cynism.

To all who think it is just a game: yes it is. But a series of such tiny little things DO HAVE impact on people. /e.g. this situation: Hitler not, Stalin yes/

AND ONCE AGAIN: IT IS NOT AGAIN THE "HITLER IN THE GAME" STUFF.

Please forgive to Psyringe. He is living in the country, which has been brainwashed into masochistic self-guiltyness for decades. He also might go to jail if he dared to doubt the history written by those who won the war or if he dared to keep certain historical items...

On topic:
Concentration camps...hm, why not. Good old British invention they are... (remember Boer War, eh?) Perhaps make it like a building, rather than an improvement? You could complete it only by whip, eliminating foreign nations or heathen religions in your cities. You could get a production bonus for certain time - and possibly also considerable sum of money. City would, however, lose population points. Such a move should, however, trigger war with the countrymen or brothers of faith with those "concentrated" and, possibly, diplo penalties with other nations too.

Could be used to avoid cultural slips, although there currently is no reason to eliminate non-state religions.

 

[Suspiria]

Civ4 includes a slavery civic, and at least in that regard they are being accurate to real life history and not bowing to PC craziness.

 

[K.F. Huszár]

Suspiria, that's what I don't understand. Civ4 - in many aspects - is the best simulation of the entire history.
Why did Firaxis remain pc in some other aspects?

Yeekem you have the point /i am near to your oppinion/

 

[Psyringe]

That's pure political correctness what you said.

If you play Civ4 you never research Fascism tech, do you? ))
When you played Civ3 you never applied Fascism as a Government, did you? ))

Congratulations.

Pure political correctness = pure stupidity

I think you're a bit quick in assuming that my opinion is based on political correctness. It's not. I don't care whether other regard them as offensive or not (which would be the base of a PC argument). I just honestly wouldn't want them myself.

Civ4 is a game, I play games to have fun. I'm sorry, but I couldn't have fun in a game that included concentration camps, for the same reason I couldn't have fun in most WW2 games, or gulf war games. These events are too recent, the wounds that they have struck are still too fresh. I couldn't play such games without having them evoke pictures of grave, very real human suffering that imho have no place in a game.

You're right when you're saying that other game mechanics, like slavery, have caused a lot of human suffering too. And whipping people to death in order to complete a building isn't especially humane either, actually this is a practice that is remniscent of the concentration camps you mentioned. However, slavery has been defeated a comparably long time ago, and the wounds it caused have closed in the meantime. I don't know people who have suffered from slavery, while I know people who had most of their family gassed to death in concentration camps. Hence I can have fun applying slavery in an abstract sense like in Civ (although I usually don't), but could never bring myself to playing games that included concentration camps.

 

[Seleukos Helios]

And I know that the "boxer-revolt" was crushed by a common European force - this white armies marched against the "yellow danger".

I could cite more examples from history. But i only cite that in Civ3 there were some groups of civs (Europeans, Far-Eastern etc.), and in these groups civs had some more respect toward each other.

The Boxer Rebellion was crushed by the Eight Nation Alliance. Six of those eight nations were European. One was the U.S.A. and the final, and greatest contributor to the alliance was Japan.

Japan later invaded China (in the 30s) and the atrocities the Japanese committed then and during WWII were never forgotten by the Chinese. But even before those events relations between the two nations were never particularly warm. The Chinese considered their Celestial Empire to be the 'Middle Kingdom', the center of the world, with the rest of the planet having insignificant importance. A popular Chinese myth stated that the Japanese originated from a group of monkeys that once sailed to those islands from China. The Japanese were equally arrogant and their contempt for their Korean and Chinese neighbors became apparent during their invasions of those countries in the 16th and 20th centuries.


In civ3 there were indeed cultural groups but there was also a predisposition for civs of the same culture to start close to each other, so this justified the concept. There is no such predisposition in civ4, so it would be a bit awkward to discover a civ of the same culture on the other side of the planet, while you're surrounded by civs of foreign cultures.

In civ3 there was also a way to indirectly ‘deport’ foreign nationals from your cities (at least if they were the majority). You could build lots of workers, who would be subtracted from the foreign population of your city. You could then use those workers as normal (forced labor camps, if you like) or resettle them in other cities, so their effect would become diluted and their assimilation would be faster. In civ4 the nationality factor is more abstract and not linked with population points, so this method can not work. Maybe there should be a ‘pogrom’ option once you have researched certain technologies or have certain civics enabled.

 

[ElusivePizza]

If we can build concentration camps, will we also get assorted Eastern European nations as victim civs?

 

[icemanjsg]

This topic has been done and done use the search button.

STOP insulting other people in the community.
UNDERSTAND that some people had family memebers die in the Holocaust, who would still be alive today.
WHY don't you pay someone in the community to make you your game with drugs, Concentration camps and Hitler and leave the topic alone already.

 

[icemanjsg]

^ still a genocide and aslo the jews don't hate him which means the western world doesn't really which means his name can be mentioned in games, and other related materials, without the jews breathing down their necks and complaining about why the name is in the game and such.

I love this post with the term "the jews" lol

watch out when you got out little Timmy the JEWS WILL GET YOU!

 

[ElusivePizza]

Isabella is often Jewish in my game, I wouldn't mind her breathing down my neck.

 

[troyDoogle7]

I think there are certain lines which shouldn't be crossed. regarding hitler.... he didn't have an empire.... any "empire" that lasts less than half a decade isn't considered an empire, otherwise you can include saddam because he captured a bit of land called kuwait. OR morrocco because they captured a bit of Western Sahara, and held it for longer than 5 years.... Not to mention the bosnian empire...

I think the less said about extermination camps the better....

 

[Chuggi]

As for Hitler, he lost. I don't see a reason why he deserves to be a faction leader for the Germans as he led the country to its destruction.

Hitler should definetly be in the game, because there are already other dictators and murderers featured for a start, Hitler is Germany's best known leader, and before Hitler lost the war and lead his country to destruction, the German empire was at its peak because of his leadership skills.

You can't deny that he was the most powerful and influential leader at the time.

The reason why he isn't in the game is because they (firaxis) don't want to promote any sort of anti-semitism or racial hatred (with good reason!), and the main reason - because they would have to produce two copies in order to sell versions of civ in germany (one copy with hitler included, one with hitler excluded for the germans) which would result in more hassle and cost for Firaxis and earn disrespect from Germany, so eg. less sales of the game there anyway.

I think Stalin actually killed more people anyway..

Anyway this way everyone's happy, those who want hitler, download him, those who don't, don't.............

 

[ElusivePizza]

I thought this thread wasn't about Hitler, otherwise I would never have participated in it.

 

[Chuggi]

This topic has been done and done use the search button.

STOP insulting other people in the community.
UNDERSTAND that some people had family memebers die in the Holocaust, who would still be alive today.
WHY don't you pay someone in the community to make you your game with drugs, Concentration camps and Hitler and leave the topic alone already.

I don't think anyone's "insulting" other people?
And if Hitler offended me in any real great way (like if I lost family members in the holocaust) I would definetly stay well clear of these forums.

Seriously if you don't agree with a forum, don't enter it and "leave the topic alone already".

Most people who play civ consider WW2 to be before there time as it is what, 61 years ago? It's like the slavery thing, we don't worry about it as much because we never experienced it.

Lastly... why are you searching for Hitler?

EDIT : sorry if you did somehow end up in this forum by accident, but again if it is offensive to you leave.

 

[ElusivePizza]

Well, people have been called "stupid" for being "politically correct". Though I still have no I idea what's so bad about being correct and why anyone would want to be purposely wrong?

 

[Chuggi]

This is funny

If we can build concentration camps, will we also get assorted Eastern European nations as victim civs?

I thought this thread wasn't about Hitler, otherwise I would never have participated in it.

One last thing, pizza, why are you contradicting yourself? You didn't want to participate in this thread BUT you want to request victim civs for your concentration camps?


You want to request eastern european nations as victims for your concentration camps........ seriously WTH