1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Civ5 at PAX

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by isndl, Sep 4, 2010.

  1. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Messages:
    7,714
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    As I've said elsewhere, Civ4 was the first game in the series where I could actually *win* the game without going for a massive expansion (either peaceful or military). Even if I didn't win the game, I could still retain a high position on the score-board. I certainly hope that Civ5 will continue-& improve on-this trend. However, I just get extremely worried when I read about how Happiness will now work (Global Only, rather than City Based & Global-which is what I wanted), how foreign trade routes are gone & how the concepts of foreign culture "infecting" your cities & tiles has been abandoned. I really want to be wrong, trust me, because I've spent the last TWENTY YEARS being excited about the Civilization Franchise. I really don't want it to end here!

    Aussie.
     
  2. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2005
    Messages:
    5,508
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Novosibirsk, Russia
    For the same reason why they release demo on Sep 21. Preparing playable build takes human resources and they don't want to spend them. I assume that means:
    - Programmers are very busy.
    - There are a lot of open bugs.
    - They aren't going to close all these bugs till release.
     
  3. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Messages:
    7,714
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    ....and again you leap spiritedly to their defense-they really ought to be paying you for this. Auncien is right: we're not saying that they had to provide the *most* recent build for PAX, but with little more than 2 weeks til release, it is quite disturbing that they're still using a build that is *several* months old!
     
  4. parabellum9x19

    parabellum9x19 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2010
    Messages:
    69
    its not disturbing at all. let them work on the game. why waste the time on a consumer show demo? i'd rather have people complaining about issues in a demo than in the first release build.
     
  5. grandad1982

    grandad1982 Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2007
    Messages:
    2,552
    So the way I look at the UI is thus; in Civ4 it was pretty pants and most of the info I wanted wasn't avalible to me at a glance (ideed even the diplo glance screen wasn't avalible till much later). It wasn't till I discovered the BUG mod that I could access the info I wanted! So. I expect something similar in Civ5. Lazy developers pushed by stupid publishers will end up being covered by the fans. Again.

    Even though i'm planning on getting the game ASAP there are many feature I worry about. Much like Aussie I worry about it being to wargame orientated, but if the war lives up to its promise of being a lot better than SoDs then I'm ok with this. Removing things like cultural assimilation, city level :), health etc are all bigger worries IMO as it seems to be (god forgive me for using this rubbish phrase) dumming down. From what i hear I also suspect I'll miss civics as well.

    Still as we all should know by now the game won't be complete till the last expantion pack comes out. So we can all just carry on being treated like naughty children without bladder control as we jump around saying "where's my features!", by the publishers.

    Not sure were that last bit came from but I think I'll keep it in. I guess I'm just feeling very cinical today.
     
  6. EmpireOfCats

    EmpireOfCats Death to Giant Robots

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    522
    Location:
    Europe
    At this point, slightly more than two weeks before release, it is a failure of Firaxis' marketing if you're feeling like that.

    Ideally, you'd want the war mongers to sit at home sharpening their swords, the culture bombers trying to figure out which combination of buildings to build, and the space ship people memorizing the tech tree, each in eager anticipation of how they will play the game. Unfortunately, the emphasis in marketing has been too much on combat, Panzergeneral, ranged combat, Giant Death Robots, and more combat. It is creating the distinct feeling that not all Civ play-styles are equal anymore.

    Probably too late by now to fix this. Only a demo could do that, and we know how that is going to turn out.
     
  7. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2005
    Messages:
    5,508
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Novosibirsk, Russia
    Supposing what developers don't meet schedule and are going to release buggy version is now considered speaking to their defense? :crazyeye:
     
  8. Churchdown Yank

    Churchdown Yank Cyber Caesar

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2009
    Messages:
    274
    Location:
    Gloucester UK
    Agree with Thyrwyn on this one. Just because military mechanics have been massively overhauled doesn't mean they've become a larger portion of the game.

    Military victories will be more difficult now I believe and military strategies will actually involve some... strategy? Rather than the only strategy being how large and of what composition your SoD would be.

    Jon Shafer has also spoken about Wonders and making them more important and getting the balance right so that races to build them are epic again. The Social Policy "tree" is a huge addition as essentially a parallel tech tree, with many options for expansion or infrastructure bonuses.
     
  9. Thyrwyn

    Thyrwyn Guardian at the Gate

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    1,289
    Location:
    State College, PA
    ...and this one appears to be the first in the series in which massive expansion (especially military) will actually prevent you from achieving certain Victory Conditions.
    Here we will have to agree to disagree:
    1) Global Happiness: makes more sense to me and more accurately models reality than city-based happiness. City Happiness creates a collection of cities that are all the same size - no empire in history has ever looked like that.

    2) Foreign trade routes: really? how did they improve the game? the system was entirely opaque and the player had no real way to influence it anyway. The system existed. It added commerce. The only impact removing them has is that the scaling cost paradigm needs to scale slower. And this one mechanic was the prime reason for late game inter-turn lag. This is the very poster child of an unnecessary game mechanic. The new trade route system is transparent and able to be influenced by the player. Effort->reward.

    3) Civ IV culture: foreign culture never "infected your cities". It only mattered at your borders and the only solution to losing the culture war was a cascading conquest and the eventual elimination of your neighbor. The culture bomb sucked in IV and if it can steal claimed tiles, it will suck in V, too.

    Other than that, the linking of culture to Social Policies is inspired and elegant: the more cultured your civ, the more evolved and effective your guiding ideology becomes. The more energy and effort you put into celebrating your culture, the more refined and ingrained your national sense of identity becomes. It is intuitive and has the effort->reward paradigm needed for a good game mechanic. And there are enough options that they can be used to pursue/assist a variety of strategies and victory conditions.
     
  10. sensual benny

    sensual benny Commander

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2010
    Messages:
    104
    Location:
    Iceland
    Jon Shafer, the leader designer, has said that his favourite way to play Civ 5 is with a small empire of only three cities. I'm certain you'll be able to win just fine as a peacemonger.
     
  11. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Messages:
    7,714
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    Here's the thing. Overall I *love* the Social Policy Tree concept, but one thing that bothers me about it is how-if what I've been hearing is true-you don't need to give up the benefits of one policy to go to the one above it. The thing I really liked about the Civics system was that it forced often difficult decisions on the player (especially after I was done with modifying them :mischief: ) Its one of the things that makes the game fun IMHO!

    Aussie.
     
  12. Hafnia

    Hafnia Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2010
    Messages:
    28
    There is a huge difference between internal builds and ones meant for public viewing. Internal builds can have huge, even game-breaking bugs and still serve their purpose, while external builds have to go through extensive quality assurance. No-one wants the focus of previews to be on crashes, graphic glitches, and game imbalance. Bearing this in mind, it is common for developers to make only one or two preview builds during development, so you don't waste too many resources.

    Making a preview build for just one show (PAX) would waste lots of QA resources, which are probably the most stressed resources right now anyway, seeing as the real game will probably go gold within a week.

    I'm worried by what we are told about diplomacy as well, but I wouldn't read too much into the fact that they are using an old preview build for conventions.
     
  13. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Messages:
    7,714
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    I did say that I wanted both City-based & global happiness-in the same way culture is both City-Based & Global in Civ5. What bugs me about the approach they're taking is how building a happiness improvement in 1 city boosts your overall happiness, or how conquering a city should lead to a massive downgrade of happiness nation-wide. It can-& should-be a mixture of both. So having a net positive happiness in most of your cities is good because it obviously contributes to a high positive happiness score for the empire, but you might have 1 city with a net negative happiness (& thus less productive) whilst your empire as a whole is steaming towards a Golden Age. Things like Luxuries should boost your *global* happiness, whilst happiness buildings should *only* improve local happiness.

    I could say the same thing. Really? In what way? Trade routes in Civ5 sound really boring to me. With the removal of the Commerce Yield, they really had the chance to beef up Foreign Trade routes-by providing boosts to science, culture, hammers & food-not merely gold. Instead they seem to have simplified them almost to the point of irrelevance.

    Again, I've played Civ4 more times than I can count, & I've never run into the problems you mention. Nor did I have to go to the extremes you mention to deal with the Culture War. Now I'm not saying that Civ4 culture was perfect, but it was a good starting point for future improvements & refinements to make it more fun-which is more than can be said for the Culture Bomb which, *yes*, can steal tiles in Civ5!

    As I've said, got no real problems with Social Policies-beyond what I said above-& I agree that I like the link between culture & Soc Pols-its actually something I've wanted to see for a while. That said, though, here in the real world culture also matters *beyond* your borders-& I believe it should in Civ5 too. Unfortunately, now it apparently doesn't!

    Aussie.
     
  14. MisterBarca

    MisterBarca Prince

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    536
    Did you get a feeling that there are more tiles with hexes than old squares?
     
  15. Suho1004

    Suho1004 Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2004
    Messages:
    207
    Location:
    South Korea
    My two cents on this is that the civics in Civ 4 are designed to be mutually exclusive--that is, you choose one in each area, and that's all you get at any one time. The social policies in Civ 5, though, are designed to "stack," though, so not having to give up earlier benefits won't be as game-breaking as the same sort of system would be with Civ 4's civics.

    On the other hand, there are certain SP trees that are, in fact, mutually exclusive--you can only have one active at a time. This means that SPs require more long-term planning than civics. In Civ 4, there was no real long-term planning needed--you just chose the set of civics that best suited your current situation and that was that. Granted, they did require some thought, because too much civic switching would lead to anarchy (for most civs) and thus make your civilization less efficient. But there was no real long-term planning involved.

    So, in the end, Civ 4 civics require an immediate weighing of priorities but little long-term planning, while Civ 5 social policies (seem to) require more long-term planning and less immediate weighing of priorities. I don't know right now if one system is better than another, since I haven't played Civ 5 yet, so I'm going to reserve judgment until I get a chance to see how SPs work as part of the bigger picture.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't know if the SPs will really be as bad as you make them out to be. In all fairness, of course, they may turn out to be a disaster, but for now I am cautiously optimistic.
     
  16. lockstep

    lockstep Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2004
    Messages:
    389
    Location:
    Vienna, Austria
    I resurrected my CivFanatics account because I found it hard to take Aussie_Lurkers comment at face value. I also played Civ4 a lot, and I regularly observed that newly conquered border cities wouldn't be of much use as long as the surrounding territory was flooded by the culture of remaining core enemy cities. In case a third civilization had settled nearby, the newly conquered cities were also prone to flip to this third party.

    lockstep
     
  17. iop

    iop Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2010
    Messages:
    129
    The difficult decisions are exactly what I think makes civilization great as well. Where we disagree is that I think the social policy system does indeed require difficult decisions. Given that cultural victory is possible only if you unlock 5 complete trees, a standard game may allow you to adopt ~20 social policies over the course of the entire game, and once invested, the policies cannot be reassigned anymore. What do you do then? Do you invest into liberty in order to expand, even if you know you want to switch to autocracy later and lose the precious policies from liberty? Do you invest in policies and get their benefits right away, knowing that you won't be able to complete the rationalism tree anymore? To me, these decisions are a lot more difficult than the ones in Civ4, where a civic choice never burned any bridges.

    For realism, I agree with you. For gameplay, I have to say that I find the unhappiness caused by conquered cities to be a very neat idea. In order to warmonger, you have to be a builder as well, since you're not going to conquer a lot of cities without getting into a civil war otherwise. It makes the game - to my eyes, at least - quite a bit more complex.
     
  18. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Messages:
    7,714
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    So you're accusing me of lying then are you? You might notice that I *also* said that, whatever faults existed in the Civ4 culture system, I believe it worked far *better* than the system they've gone with for Civ5-which effectively makes your culture USELESS outside your own borders (except on unowned tiles)! To me that, & an inability to buy owned tiles, is going to make the game way too dull for words!
     
  19. lockstep

    lockstep Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2004
    Messages:
    389
    Location:
    Vienna, Austria
    I have noticed your many comparisons of Civ4 v. Civ5 features, and I generally regard them as well founded. However, I think you have at least unknowingly disregarded the "cascading conquest" effect described by Thyrwin and also regularly witnessed by me. (You didn't respond to Thyrwin "I always could cope with these problems" but "I've never run into the problems you mention".)

    lockstep
     
  20. krunsh

    krunsh Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2008
    Messages:
    303
    Every aspect of Civ 5 seems to be better than Civ 4. I think they have learned a lot from Civilization Revolution, took the best part of it and mixed it with the more complicated formula of Civ 4.

    So now you have more clear result from every action you make and a lot of the more obscure side of the game have been changed or replace by new mechanics.
     

Share This Page