Civ6 unpopular opinions thread

[AntSou]

I think it could also be solved with adopting civics/policies. Military Training for example in the Classical Era would allow you stack two units, and then later you can add one more when you learn Pike and Shot formation, Military Science etc.

Yeah, I talked about something similar a while ago. E.g. The Huns and Mongols could have a unique tactic (or unlock it earlier) that allows them to stack several cavalry units.

 

[aieeegrunt]

I think it could also be solved with adopting civics/policies. Military Training for example in the Classical Era would allow you stack two units, and then later you can add one more when you learn Pike and Shot formation, Military Science etc.

Limited stacking solves a lot of the problems with movement, combat and AI in Civ6

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

1UPT, SoD, Limited Stacking -

My take here, have nothing substantive to add:

Combat System for Civ VII

 

[nzcamel]

The more authoritarian and controlling a government is, the more corrupt it becomes. I’m watching this play out in real time where I live

Agreed; though in terms of stability pre-liberalism authoritarianism could work comparatively to keep people together; even as it extracted a high price out of its people.

A butterfly or two in the thirties making the US go socialist, and we’d currently be talking about how obvious it is that capitalism is a terrible system

See that is exactly what I'm talking about (and Boris also disagrees with above) regarding good civic arrangements stablising any country. The checks and balances and spread of power between the states and the fed mean that the US will never go socialist as a whole. Some individual states could, to a large degree, but other states with populations who won't abide socialism, wouldn't. Which for the long term health of the country is great. The socialists are happy. The capitalists are happy. Or rather they're not, but both groups are happier than if they were forced to conform to an ideology they disagree with. Meaning that rebellions and uprisings are much much less likely to happen.

The civic arrangements of the US are like a building built to withstand earthquakes. They allow the building to shake with the quake, and in doing so the country has a much better chance of survival than if the building was fighting the quake.

Yes, the bowman shooting Koln from Berlin on the small-sized Standard Map. Take that, Robin Hood!

Yeah yeah, I know lol. The way I have mentally adjusted to it is to think that the game happens on a strategic scale, but that any actual battle is zoomed in to a tactical level. It works for me

 

[reddishrecue]

- And so everybody has to comment on what made USA great and what made Rome fall.

Quite aside from having a continent of resources (so does Russia) or a large population (so does China, India, Russia, Brazil, etc, etc) or no immediate enemies (China at various points in her history has had no nearby enemies large enough to threaten her - there's no indication that it made the slightest difference in her progress technologically, culturally, politically, or any other way). IF the USA is a dominant power it's because of the Rule of Law we inherited from the English, which makes it very, very hard to warp the State and its People to extremes of any kind. Current and 1930s politics are excellent case studies: despite all the radical rhetoric from frenzied but out-numbered groups from all sides of the political spectrum, even when they appear to be in charge their efforts are stifled by other branches of government or members of their own administration that believe that the Law comes First.
Compare continental Europe in the 1930s or Russia in the 21st century for examples of what happens to stressed states without compensating factors in their Social/Civic systems.

And Rome did not fall because its people got "lazy and decadent" - Gibbon's debunked thesis - it fell because they got Dead: 2 major plagues less than a century apart that killed off 30 - 40% of the population of the western Empire, placing enormous strains on the Roman Army and Roman agriculture for workers and soldiers. Without workers to raise food (always the bulk of the population before Modern Agricultural Technologies) and someone to protect them while they work, no state of any size could survive.

Helping Rome go under was the fact that their administrative and tax-collecting apparatus was grossly inefficient by later standards. The Empire could realize about 1/10 of the amount of the income of the State that a modern (post 18th century) European State could - in either manpower or Cash: the conscript armies that started fighting WWI amounted to 10% of the total population and mobilized between 3 and 5% Per Year for the duration of the war. The Roman Empire at its best had 500,000 professional soldiers in a population (pre-Plagues) of about 50,000,000 - 1%, and maintaining that force took most of the income of the entire State at all times.

Lesson: The Soft Factors are frequently more important than the physical surroundings. Rome had 'Barbarian' neighbors, as did China, but in both cases examination of the actual accounts shows that the two Empires invaded their barbarian neighbors far more often than they were invaded. When major Barbarian Incursions overran the civilized Empires, it was because they ran out of troops and hired Barbarians (Rome, Tang China) or taught the Barbarians too much about 'modern' military technology (Rome, Song China) and so leveled the playing field to their disadvantage.

I put it out as a Topic (for another Thread, please): the most important part of any Civ VII game design is not the Tech Tree, or Combat System, or depiction of Leaders, but how Civic and Social Policies are depicted and how they affect the Civs.

I agree with that too.. it's almost as if the revolution and the independence is no longer what had made America great anymore. The rise of airplanes and the world trade center disaster with bin laden and the attacks were also a reason why USA lost that strategic advantage it used to have through globalization and technology.

 

[AntSou]

I like Rock Bands.

 

[tedhebert]

I think shuffle mode should be the default setting for every game ! Makes such a difference into replayability and playing THE GAME and not A SET OPTIMIZED STRATEGY….

 

[Thormodr]

I would say that just about every mode except Barbarian Clans basically breaks the game in your favour



Try this mod

Steam Workshop::No More District++

steamcommunity.com

It moves most of the districts back to the city centre. Not only does this cut back on tedious micro but the AI seems to be a lot stronger



The more authoritarian and controlling a government is, the more corrupt it becomes. I’m watching this play out in real time where I live



I also hate them. See the mod I linked earlier in this post



It’s a weird and stupid distinction. Aside from the tedious micro of district placement it also takes any sense of historical role play behind the minimaxing munchkin woodshed and shoots it dead. Rome did not locate it’s libraries hundreds of km away from the city centre in some remote mountain valley


Get the mod I linked

Also get this mod

Steam Workshop::Customization VI

steamcommunity.com

Go into Advanced settings in Game Setup and set “distance between cities” to 1.

You get exactly what you just described





The US is dominant because of a bunch of happy geographical accidents

It has an entire continent to itself

Said continent had all the resources needed

It has no dangerous neighbours

It has two large oceans as buffer zones

A butterfly or two in the thirties making the US go socialist, and we’d currently be talking about how obvious it is that capitalism is a terrible system



99% of Canada is usless tundra, which is why 90% of the population is lined up along the US border

99% of Canada is not useless tundra. Good grief!

 

[Zaarin]

I like Rocks Bands.

I think shuffle mode should be the default setting for every game ! Makes such a difference into replayability and playing THE GAME and not A SET OPTIMIZED STRATEGY….

I think it's fine to have as an option, but it definitely should not be the default. Tech needs some rethinking to be less deterministic and more interesting, but simply randomizing it is not an improvement.

 

[Jaybe]

99% of Canada is not useless tundra. Good grief!

Well, if you include all the coniferous forest (which is NOT tundra), it’s close. Tundra is about 26% of Canada.

 

[Thormodr]

Well, if you include all the coniferous forest (which is NOT tundra), it’s close. Tundra is about 26% of Canada.

Yes. 26% is quite close to 99%....

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think shuffle mode should be the default setting for every game ! Makes such a difference into replayability and playing THE GAME and not A SET OPTIMIZED STRATEGY….

Now, 'Shuffle Mode' is an example of a purely Game Mechanic that sets my teeth on edge.

It bears no resemblence at all to actual technology development, but simply makes the game more 'replayable' for those gamers who think being unable to predict what happens next = playability. It actually = Chaotic Unpredictability, which is completely unrealistic and the anthesis of what humans have been trying to impose on the world since they came out of the trees.
Shuffle Mode is a substitute for a more realistic model of Tech Progression. I fully undertand the reason for it: modeling tech progression is Hard if you try to do it right. The old saw that X follows B which follows A in a nice, straight line of 'progress' is a complete Crock: people in various parts of the world developed entirely different ways of achieving the ends they desired and skipped those that they didn't need. I could go on interminably with cases, but two will do:
1. Mediterranean Europe developed relatively high-temperature charcoal-fired furnaces and smelted wrought iron for tools and weapons, but never developed any higher-temperatures that would have given them cast iron until almost 2000 years later. China developed cast iron and used it for tools, weapons, and decorative objects over 1000 years before Europe, because they had access to clays that included a metallic content that when fired at high temperatures, gave them Porcelain (an Extremely Desirable luxury and trade good) - so they developed bellows-driven 'blast' furnaces to produce those high temperatures, and discovered that it not only allowed high-temperature ceramics, but also liquified iron and allowed it to be cast.
2. Bronze was the first metal (alloy, actually) worked that was hard enough to produce saw teeth that wouldnt wear to nothing after a few cuts. This allowed people to cut across the grain of wood and this, in turn, allowed them to cut smooth-edged planks that could be fashioned into solid round wheels. Since Europeans and Asians already had access to draft animals like donkeys, horses and oxen, wherever Bronze appears in the archeological record, either discovered or traded, wheeled vehicles appear as well. Bronze and Wheel are Related Technologies: one requires the other, at least from the evidence so far.
- And contrary to popular belief, the native Americans did a lot of metal-working: copper, gold, silver, arsenical bronze were all smelted, fabricated, and cast - including the relatively sophisticated 'lost wax' method of casting. But the most sophisticated bronze work seems to have been among the cultures of the Andes (pre-Inca and Inca) which, by sheer Bad Luck, did not work wood very much: they were experts at forming stone of all kinds, but had relatively little access to massive amounts of forest - so they never developed bronze saws, and having no draft animals of any size, never had any need for large wheels, even though they were perfectly familiar with the wheel (there are both Aztec and Incan wheeled toys in museums, but nothing larger).

In other words, for some very Basic Technologies: bronze and iron working, the wheel - there is no single, clear 'path' for your Tech Progression: it depends on the individual group's needs and other situational aspects: is wood or stone or clay their basic building material? Do they have other needs for the same techniques that can be applied to metalworking or Wheel? (and note, Pottery techniques are tied into early metal-working: the same kiln technologies were developed and used for both).
The simple 'Tech Tree' is simply a Bad Model - but a completely accurate model would probably resemble a Tech Kudzu Vine and drive many gamers quite Mad with its apparently-chaotic nature. As usual in game design, a compromise has to be found between Reality and Mindless Simplicity. Merely Shuffling is not that compromise.

 

[pokiehl]

I like randomness and chaotic unpredictability. They add a ton of replay value. If the only option for this game was to play TSL I’d be much less interested.

I also really like Tech and Civic Shuffle mode.

 

[Zaarin]

I like randomness and chaotic unpredictability. They add a ton of replay value. If the only option for this game was to play TSL I’d be much less interested.

While I agree with enjoying some chaotic unpredictability and having very little interest in TSL, for me a randomized tech tree is something that would jar me out of the game. There's entertaining absurdity (I just conquered the world as Georgia through the power of Confucianism) and then there's "I just discovered Bronze Working without Mining or Pottery!"

 

[pokiehl]

While I agree with enjoying some chaotic unpredictability and having very little interest in TSL, for me a randomized tech tree is something that would jar me out of the game. There's entertaining absurdity (I just conquered the world as Georgia through the power of Confucianism) and then there's "I just discovered Bronze Working without Mining or Pottery!"

That stuff just does not bother me at all. It doesn't even come to mind.

I also like it when things go way off the rails of history in Paradox games.

 

[Linklite]

I like randomness and chaotic unpredictability. They add a ton of replay value. If the only option for this game was to play TSL I’d be much less interested.

I also really like Tech and Civic Shuffle mode.

While I wouldn't want it as the standard, I can definitely see why it would be desirable for replayability. Having the same objectives everytime can make it stale, and having a randomised tech/culture tree can change things up. What is jarring is subjective - I daresay the randomised maps are jarring for geography specialists.

I quite like the TSL maps and have never even played shuffle mode, but I can see the value of it.

 

[Zaarin]

That stuff just does not bother me at all. It doesn't even come to mind.

I also like it when things go way off the rails of history in Paradox games.

For me there are interesting ways for history to go off the rails and uninteresting ways for things to go off the rails. Nonsensical tech trees are in the latter category for me. As a mod or optional feature, it's fine; I'd be very annoyed if it were made standard.

 

[Jeppetto]

Besides, I always thought 'Baba Yetu' sounded like the name of Yoda's brother in law . . .

In my language it sounds like 'Grannie is here'

To comment on the debate about songs from ages ago in this thread, I would prefer one strong theme for base game, which changes with every expansion, but not entirely, melody remains, it's just thematic remix. Much like The Sims did it every now and then, that expansion changes main theme based on its theme, such as more band march, cheerleader, sport whistle flavour into remix for University expansion etc. So, for example, If they released expansion around Future Era exclusively, the main theme would be Songo di Volare, but more futuristic, more like BE soundtrack.

To comment on slightly more recent debate on Districts, although I am not someone who builds Preserve over other districts all the time due to stylistic choice, If Civ 7 only has Districts/Improvements as one system covering both, we might actually try If it's more about adjacent tiles than those it is on. So a general rule would be to sacrifice central tile as the district's power are those adjacent. Would actually feel like placing Improvements is less no-brainer in terms of what goes where and they vary in strength based on environment. Such as Lumber Mill granting +1 Production per adjacent Forest.

 

[Zaarin]

In my language it sounds like 'Grannie is here'

That's a dark twist on the Pater Noster..."Grannie is here in Heaven." Better than in Gravity Falls, I suppose: "Soos, I just want to see you settled before I go to Heaven to live with the angels." "And with Grandpa, right, Abuelita?" "hesitates and looks down No, he is not there..."

To comment on the debate about songs from ages ago in this thread, I would prefer one strong theme for base game, which changes with every expansion, but not entirely, melody remains, it's just thematic remix. Much like The Sims did it every now and then, that expansion changes main theme based on its theme, such as more band march, cheerleader, sport whistle flavour into remix for University expansion etc. So, for example, If they released expansion around Future Era exclusively, the main theme would be Songo di Volare, but more futuristic, more like BE soundtrack.

DS9 did this well. In season 4, as the war with the Klingons heated up, the main theme became much more martial, with a faster tempo and more brass. (Enterprise, on the other hand, is a great example of how not to do this: as the show started to verge on grimdark, the main theme got poppier and even more jingly-jangly.)

To comment on slightly more recent debate on Districts, although I am not someone who builds Preserve over other districts all the time due to stylistic choice, If Civ 7 only has Districts/Improvements as one system covering both, we might actually try If it's more about adjacent tiles than those it is on. So a general rule would be to sacrifice central tile as the district's power are those adjacent. Would actually feel like placing Improvements is less no-brainer in terms of what goes where and they vary in strength based on environment. Such as Lumber Mill granting +1 Production per adjacent Forest.

This is an interesting idea. I like the Preserve a lot and wouldn't mind seeing more like it, but I'm not sure I'd want all districts to work that way.

 

[Patine]

I agree with that too.. it's almost as if the revolution and the independence is no longer what had made America great anymore. The rise of airplanes and the world trade center disaster with bin laden and the attacks were also a reason why USA lost that strategic advantage it used to have through globalization and technology.

Personally, I always thought its mass media becoming a joke and the irony of spreading culture, but culture that's ridiculed abroad, was the true reason for American decline.