Civic Mini Mod / Suggestions for RoM

[Maatissi]

Okay! Thanks for your nice attitude. You'll just have to give me some time to give my first list of suggestions... It's 6 AM in Japan right now and I have to catch my flight back to Finland after spending 11 months here studying as an exchange student...

So, it might take a few days before I get all settled and fully oriented in Finland once again. Then I will compose my list of suggestions. Thanks for your patience in advance!

 

[Lawrie]

Hmm

Now heres a challenge,

Presently in the Society Column, Heb has mentioned (and feel free to comment Heb) over the inconsistency of the present column.

Tribal
Feudalism
Proletariat
Bourgeious
Nationalist
Marxist
Liberal

This is because it mixes some social classes and 'ideologies'. I have thought on this, and decided that really, while they are not directly comparable to each other - they do all relate to society.

Although one can argue this, i think it is generally accepted, that we have seen the greatest politicalisation of society with the ideas of nationalism (first as a state of national consciousness ie age of enlightenment) to Marxism and Liberal thought.

Those last 3 have sought to re-design society from the ground up.

However society has never been completely apolitical! Yet we cannot say that society has always been driven by the huge political influences of the last 3 (over the last couple of centuries.)

I see the last 3 as representing options for the implementation of radical ideas on society.

So the choice of Proles and Bourge, these of course relate to the working and upper classes (as defined in marxism) - however, they are retroactive definitions - that one could use to define the earliest hierarchal societies.

These relate to the political consciousness of social groups, for example the plebs of Rome and their tribunes, or their domination by patricians would be an early example.

In that sense those civic choices also represent societies with far greater freedom than feudalism confers. (Its benefits are quite different however.)

In that sense Feudalism is not an ideology either, (in fact the terms relating to medieval society while named such have far more exotic names!)

I think the mix is also necessary to ensure there is a 'development' that can occur within the research of that column. For if it were just social classes then they would already exist within the society for the player to choose between.

If they were just ideologies then neither would they work within the system of ideologies expressed within the govt, politic, and other columns.

So its a long explanation but suffice to say, the only thing i think worth changing now is the Tribal civic to Caste?

However, it may be nice to express some element of Conservatism and classic liberalism in the prole and bourge choices (in their description, and graphic.) Nothing extreme, and it is debatable.

Classically the working classes have been more conservative than the more secular middle and upper classes. Utterly subjective of course - comments please

Oh especially on the idea of making the social classes bourge and prole available earlier (for those civs like rome that obviously had politicised and well developed social / hierarchal structures.)

(And no... we don't have to wait past the tech of marxism before we can use that theories well known class of social definition!)

 

[Big Heb]

Here are some possible changes to religion. I assumed Free Church to be freedom of religion, but I guess Secular fills that role.

Prophets - Default.
Divine Cult - Requires Mysticism.
Free Church - Requires Monotheism.
State Church - Requires Theology
Intolerant - Requires Fundamentalism.
Secular - Requires Humanism.
Atheist - Requires Biology? I think Darwin's theory of evolution caused atheism to start spreading. If not perhaps Scientific Method?

And also here are some basic ideas for what each civic will give, starting with the government civics. These are not exact numbers, but rather an idea for what they would do. My idea is not to do what RoM does by giving boosts everywhere to commerce, culture and science, but instead to have effects more representative of what the civic does.

Government
> Chiefdom - Boosts to food for faster population growth. That would represent the neolithic revolution that allowed for rapid population growth. There could also be higher maintenance costs, since chiefs trying to run an empire would be nearly impossible.
Examples to Model: Neolithic cities, tribes; modern utopian communities, tribes.

> Despotism - Quicker military production and less war weariness. And also less unhappiness from slavery could be a good idea. This would also identify with modern military dictatorships, so either boosts later on or appropriate starting bonuses to represent that are a must.
Examples to Model: Sumerians, Assyrians, Hittites, Egyptians, Mycenaens, Mongolia; modern Myanmar, Liberia, Somalia, Sierra Leone, ETC.

> Monarchy - Faster wonder production, more experience for military units, faster culture growth, and maybe something to do with vassals. Most successful monarchies are identified by stable government, provincial conquest, cultural revolutions, and good commerce. The Hereditary Rule civic is a good start, but moving away from old-style gameplay I believe is a must.
Examples to Model: ancient Persia, Macedon, Han China, Rome, Britain, France, Spain, Ottoman, Islamic Caliphate, ETC.

> Republic - I am assuming this is an Athenian, Roman or Enlightenment constitutional republic opposed to forms of oligarchy like China. I am not sure what the effects should be, however. The Representation effects are very "unrepresentative" of a republic.
Examples to Model: Athens, Roman Republic, early USA, modern Britain, ETC.

> Fascist - +1 happiness from garrisoned troops (increased police control), lower war weariness, able to finish production with slavery, major unhappiness and risk of riots when amount of garrisoned troops is lower than population, increased maintenance costs. Maybe a bit overpowered, but maintaining a large empire would be a major drain on a fascist economy. Fascism is self-explanatory.
Examples to Model: Nazi Germany, Mussolini's Italy, Stalin's Soviet Union, North Korea, ETC.

> Communist - Would have to be used with Planned economy. Not sure what the government civic would do.
Examples to Model: Soviet Union, PRC, Vietnam, ETC.

> Democracy - I see the difference between Republic and Democracy as that in a Republic the government's role is security and strictly protecting liberty while in a Democracy the government's role is carrying out the will of the people. I'm open to disagreement, however.
Examples to Model: modern USA, ETC.

 

[Big Heb]

Hmm

Now heres a challenge,

Presently in the Society Column, Heb has mentioned (and feel free to comment Heb) over the inconsistency of the present column.

Tribal
Feudalism
Proletariat
Bourgeious
Nationalist
Marxist
Liberal

This is because it mixes some social classes and 'ideologies'. I have thought on this, and decided that really, while they are not directly comparable to each other - they do all relate to society.

Although one can argue this, i think it is generally accepted, that we have seen the greatest politicalisation of society with the ideas of nationalism (first as a state of national consciousness ie age of enlightenment) to Marxism and Liberal thought.

Those last 3 have sought to re-design society from the ground up.

However society has never been completely apolitical! Yet we cannot say that society has always been driven by the huge political influences of the last 3 (over the last couple of centuries.)

I see the last 3 as representing options for the implementation of radical ideas on society.

So the choice of Proles and Bourge, these of course relate to the working and upper classes (as defined in marxism) - however, they are retroactive definitions - that one could use to define the earliest hierarchal societies.

These relate to the political consciousness of social groups, for example the plebs of Rome and their tribunes, or their domination by patricians would be an early example.

In that sense those civic choices also represent societies with far greater freedom than feudalism confers. (Its benefits are quite different however.)

In that sense Feudalism is not an ideology either, (in fact the terms relating to medieval society while named such have far more exotic names!)

I think the mix is also necessary to ensure there is a 'development' that can occur within the research of that column. For if it were just social classes then they would already exist within the society for the player to choose between.

If they were just ideologies then neither would they work within the system of ideologies expressed within the govt, politic, and other columns.

So its a long explanation but suffice to say, the only thing i think worth changing now is the Tribal civic to Caste?

However, it may be nice to express some element of Conservatism and classic liberalism in the prole and bourge choices (in their description, and graphic.) Nothing extreme, and it is debatable.

Classically the working classes have been more conservative than the more secular middle and upper classes. Utterly subjective of course - comments please

Oh especially on the idea of making the social classes bourge and prole available earlier (for those civs like rome that obviously had politicised and well developed social / hierarchal structures.)

(And no... we don't have to wait past the tech of marxism before we can use that theories well known class of social definition!)

The way I interpret Proletariat and Bourgeois is which class is catered to in society. So basically Proletariat would be Socialism or Populism (progressivism and neo-liberalism could fit under there as well), and Bourgeois would reflect elitist views, such as the political beliefs of the USA Federalist Party in the late 18th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_party

I do see a problem now with Conservative. Since it pertains to maintaining the status quo, its meaning differs from country to country. It used to mean those who wanted to keep the monarchy, and now it means those who want to strictly follow the Constitution. I guess if Liberal receives bonuses that reflects that of classic liberalism rather than FDR-style neo-liberalism, I would be fine with keeping the classes. Liberal has a twisted meaning these days.

I am not sure if this is how you interpreted it to be, but if it was wouldn't Marxist also fall under Proletariat and Feudalism fall under Bourgeois?

 

[Lawrie]

Hey Heb,

Govt Civics/Religious pre-req
Cheers for the comments, those recommendations for the govt civics look good, as does the religious civics - we'll start confirming civics and descrips as part of a recommendation for Zapp. Excellent work though.

Society Civic
Yep bearing in mind though, that proles and bourge are just social classes (albeit the name of those classes and definitions are based on marxism) they are not as classes defined as either socialist/ elitist etc.

You are right however, there are political leanings with these choices - but not necessarily based on socialist/capitalist leanings (they can have that subjective impression when or if players retain these civics in the industrial age) but if when they become available earlier - then we can imagine their differences.

However, proles would indicate 'the rights of the masses' where as bourge, would indicate more, 'the privilages of the rulers' (subjective, but of the middle and upper classes. - as a note it never fails to surprise me how politicians try to convince the populace that 'most' are middle class nowadays particularly in the USA.

Neither is supposed to be as 'extreme' as the last 3 society civics, but you are right, in suggesting that proles is probably going to be more to the left and perhaps bourge to the right (slightly) - though only in regards to political and economic thought, not so to cultural or religious thinking. For as we know, in that regard working classes are far more conservative and religious than more often, the more secular middle classes and rulers. Its an interesting contrast - but thankfully thats what the other civic columns are there for - to help flesh out our characterisation of society.

But basically proles and bourge civic choices mean their 'interests' as a class supercede the governments attempts to indoctrinate them into any particular political ideology (the last 3 civics) hence why i wouldnt say proles are basically marxist or bourge feudal etc. As a point of note we know that being a proletariat (by definition anyway)

Such choices when paired with fascist govt choices for example, would simply indicate a more open/less ideological/ moderate society (comparative) only to the govts official ideology. Communist China being a good example of that.

You are quite right about Liberal and its distortions, likewise however with Conservative philisophy. Its worth noting how different their 'neo' versions are to their original counterparts. Those neo's are difficult to define and represent a flux within those political movements (that i dont think qualify really as alternative civic choices.) I think we can leave it to the players own subjective perspective, whether they intend their liberal or neo-conservative *ahem* nationalist civic choice, play styles will be 'traditional or neo'.

//

Interesting Note

What is a challenge in a way, is where to place our social class of prole and bourge - at what point in history did such social classes exist with political/economic consciousness to such an extent they should be represented. Given how complex Roman society was, and how sophisticated, it would be arguable that such options should be present then. As while the 'dark ages' and their 'darkness' have been exaggerated, no kingdom of europe for example really competed with the social/political dynamic, till at least the renaiscence. In that sense feudal / as a society civic must bring a very particular advantage - that was obviously something needed at that time in history. It certainly evolved from a circumstantial need for control/domination/stability rather than as an evolution of intellect and philosophy.

 

[Big Heb]

What is a challenge in a way, is where to place our social class of prole and bourge - at what point in history did such social classes exist with political/economic consciousness to such an extent they should be represented. Given how complex Roman society was, and how sophisticated, it would be arguable that such options should be present then. As while the 'dark ages' and their 'darkness' have been exaggerated, no kingdom of europe for example really competed with the social/political dynamic, till at least the renaiscence. In that sense feudal / as a society civic must bring a very particular advantage - that was obviously something needed at that time in history. It certainly evolved from a circumstantial need for control/domination/stability rather than as an evolution of intellect and philosophy.

That does bring up a good debate. Do we want to make it available when the ideas of classes came to be (ancient era), or when these classes began to play a gigantic role in society? Do we want them available from the same technology, or different ones?

I am thinking they should be available in the classical era when social hierarchies developed, but from different technologies. Aristotle defined democracy as "rule by the poor" and oligarchy as "rule by the rich". Perhaps using that idea, Proletariat could be available from the Democracy tech and Bourgeois from the Monarchy tech.

I think a good idea would be to make it so both Proletariat and Bourgeois would be feasible throughout history.

For example, Proletariat could reduce the costs of buildings like Granaries, Arenas, Libraries, Butcheries, Forges, Lighthouses, Healer Huts, Temples, Monasteries, Aqueducts, Bakeries, ETC. in the ancient era and buildings like Schools, Public Transportation, Hospitals, Power Plants, Water Treatment Plants, ETC. in the modern era.

Conversely, Bourgeois could reduce the costs of builds like Markets, Theaters, Bazaars, Brothels, Jewelries, Ports, Doctor's Offices, Paved Roads, ETC. in the ancient era and buildings like Commercial Ports, Factories, Supermarkets, Skyscrapers, Industrial Parks, Casinos, ETC. in the modern era.

Early on, Proletariat would help food and production while Bourgeois would help commerce and culture, which is a perfectly accurate representation of history. Later on, there would be different buildings with different functions in both civics, so rather than deciding which area you want to concentrate on it essentially becomes Proletariat helping public works and Bourgeois helping industry and luxury, which again is a perfectly accurate representation of history.

Doing this shows which class your civilization caters to, as you would most likely end up building more of the buildings you get a discount for. This idea of reduced cost buildings would only apply to the two class civics, as the big three political ideologies function far more specifically while the two classes cover a broad range of ideologies.

 

[Lawrie]

Ah, very eloquent quote from Aristotle Heb, yep, in that case I think we should make those society civic options available in the ancient era too.

But with which techs could they become available?

It does mean however, that until the age of enlightenment (approximately) we won't get to nationalist and liberal, (and then victorian era for marxism).

I think the improvement discount is an excellent idea, however I don't know whether its possible without radical changes to the xmls/ or code, but something I think is definately worth Zapp considering. Your definitions and ideas for the class representations are accurate, very good.

Medieval
Its interesting to consider that feudalism is hardly a superior for of civic to the enlightenment of the most sophisticated ancient civilizations. It is interesting to note that this 'historical regression' (at least in the earliest formation of feudal government and society) is still in civ4 a technological advance.

That said im not suggesting anything is done otherwise - its just ironic.

 

[Big Heb]

I must say that this took a while.

At the moment in RoM and even Vanilla, all the civics seem to just give random bonuses and use the names to represent the differences. This is the complete first draft. I supplied numbers, but they are estimations and only discussion and play-testing will produce the final result. And the descriptions are general and will need to be worked on.

New Civic Update: Version 0.1

Government
Government represents the size, scope, and role of the state in the civilization. Since the state has all the power, it is able to direct the civilization into a certain broad direction. Other civic columns and in-game decisions will bring that broad direction to a more specific direction, but Government sets the foundation.

> Chiefdom
Bonuses: +1 food from Farms; +1 hammers from Mines and Quarries; +2 happiness from Monument; +10% maintenance
Requirements: Default
Cost: Low Upkeep
Description: Chiefdom is a weak autocratic state ruled by a leader known as a chief. Chiefdoms can be simple and composed of only one settlement, or it can be a confederacy of different tribes or a complex chiefdom ruled by a paramount chief. The defining element from Chiefdom is the sense of community. Chiefs often rule over a very small amount of people, so it is far easier for him to direct day-to-day activities. Chiefdoms are good for new civilizations or struggling civilizations that are underdeveloped and want enhanced local government, but offer little benefit and more expenses to larger civilizations. Chiefdoms were common during the Neolithic period and were the governments commonly used by nomadic people such as the Native Americans.

> Despotism
Bonuses: +1 unhealthiness from sacrificing population (no unhappiness penalty); +10% military production; +50% production for Barracks and Garrison; +1 happiness per Police Squad garrisoned in city
Requirements: Slavery
Cost: Low Upkeep
Description: Despotism is a form of autocratic government where the ruler has absolute power over his/her subjects. Despots do not need to be cruel military dictators, although they often are. Peaceful despots could use their power to subdue slaves in order to produce great public works for his/her citizens. However, cruel despots, known as tyrants, can use their absolute power to abuse his/her subjects and slaves in order to fund massive military campaigns. Despotism was common in ancient times with examples being the Egyptians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Mycenaean Greeks, and others, and also is seen in present day with military dictatorships such as Myanmar, Somalia, Liberia, Sierra Leone, and others.

> Monarchy
Bonuses: +2 experience points for new military units; +50% culture in all cities; unlimited Noble specialists; -1 turn of Anarchy from civics switch (has to be at least one turn); +25% Golden Age length
Requirements: Monarchy
Cost: Medium Upkeep
Description: Monarchy is a broad form of autocratic government common throughout human history. It is commonly associated with a hereditary line of succession of rulers. While Despotism is associated with unstable government and military dominance at the expense of the people, Monarchy is often associated with a slower rate of conquest but cultural and economic growth and stable government. Monarchies have existed in almost every part of the world, but the most famous monarchies in history are the Roman Empire, Britain, France, Spain, China, the Ottoman Empire, and the Islamic Caliphate.

> Republic
Bonuses: +2 happiness per city; +50% war weariness; +25% Anger Duration from Sacrificing Population; +25% culture in all cities; -25% maintenance; +1 commerce and +1 production from Cottage, Hamlet, Village, Town after discovery of Constitution
Requirements: Democracy
Cost: Low Upkeep
Description: A Republic is a government that is characterized by a lack of autocratic rule and some involvement of the people. In almost all cases, democracy is a key component of a republic, although some republics have been closer to oligarchies than democracies. In a Republic, following the law or constitution is regarded as more important than submitting to the peoples' demands. Common examples of Republics are Athens, the Roman Republic, and the early United States.

> Fascist
Bonuses: +1 happiness per garrisoned military unit; can draft 1 unit per turn; +25% maintenance costs; all military units start with Fanatic promotion; -50% Great Person rate; all corporations’ headquarters are moved to the capital
Requirements: Fascism
Cost: High Upkeep
Description: Fascism is a totalitarian nationalist government strongly influenced by militarism, statism, collectivism and nationalism. The Fascist government conditions its citizens at birth to believe the country is more important than their own lives. While much of the population submits to the fascist ideology, some speak against it, and those people are quickly silenced by the military. The citizens of a Fascist nation are conditioned to accept and even prefer authoritarian law and conscription, of which is an honor in the country. Soldiers are conditioned to value the state over their very lives, and thus are more likely to sacrifice themselves in order to win battles. Economically, Fascist nations nationalize their corporations. The most common examples of fascist states are Nazi Germany and Mussolini's Italy.

> Communist
Bonuses: Corporations have no effect; +2 commerce from workshops; cottages, hamlets, villages and towns do not develop and give no commerce; 0% Great Person rate in all cities; +50% unit production in all cities
Requirements: Communism; Planned economy civic
Cost: High Upkeep
Description: Communism is often referred as the higher phase of Marxist Communism, opposed to Socialism being the first phase. A Communist government, however, is the transitional government used by countries wishing to move from another country into the first and later the higher phase of communism. Communist governments are generally led by a political party calling themselves the Communist Party, although it can also be led by an autocrat such as Stalin or Mao Zedong. While there are many forms of communism, the common components of all forms are a banishment of private property, the outlawing of corporations, social and economic equality, and a substantial boost to production. Common examples of Communist governments are the Soviet Union, the People’s Republic of China, Vietnam, former Yugoslavia, ETC.

> Democracy
Bonuses: +1 happiness per Police Squad garrisoned in city; +25% war weariness; +25% commerce in all cities; +1 food from cottages, hamlets, villages and towns; can draft 1 unit per turn; +2 unhappiness in all cities with Slavery economy civic
Requirements: Representative Democracy
Cost: Medium Upkeep
Description: Democracy represents a form of government where the people elect representatives who make up the state and fulfill the wishes of the people. The distinct difference between a Representative Democracy and a Republic is that a Republic exists to protect the people and Democracy exists to serve the people. The people entrust the government with the power of income taxation that can be used to finish production. Since the people choose who to elect, they know they have a lot of power in government and thus are more likely to vocally oppose a war if one has dragged on too long and without much interest for the people.

Power
Power represents where the political power in the government lies. At this point, I am unsure as to what role the political power will play in game-terms, so I have left all of the descriptions and bonuses blank for now.

> Aristocracy
Bonuses: To Be Determined
Requirements: Default
Cost: To Be Determined
Description: To Be Determined

> Patrician
Bonuses: To Be Determined
Requirements: Trade
Cost: To Be Determined
Description: To Be Determined

> Bureaucracy
Bonuses: To Be Determined
Requirements: Civil Service
Cost: To Be Determined
Description: To Be Determined

> Vassalage (thinking this should be replaced)
Bonuses: To Be Determined
Requirements: Feudalism
Cost: To Be Determined
Description: To Be Determined

> Parliament
Bonuses: To Be Determined
Requirements: Constitution
Cost: To Be Determined
Description: To Be Determined

> Senate
Bonuses: To Be Determined
Requirements: Liberalism
Cost: To Be Determined
Description: To Be Determined

> President
Bonuses: To Be Determined
Requirements: Representative Democracy
Cost: To Be Determined
Description: To Be Determined

Society
Society represents the most common traditions and values of your civilization’s society. Early in history, you are able to decide the social hierarchy of your civilization’s society. After the Enlightenment era, however, new civics representing influential political movements are available to you. These civics affect society itself, so what civic you choose will have an effect on how your citizens view your in-game decisions and choice of building projects. If you behave contrary to their beliefs, they may be less productive and unhappy, while following their beliefs will result in the opposite.

> Tribal
Bonuses: +1 happiness for every food resource (duplicates do not count); -25% war weariness; +2 unhappiness in every city per number of cities; no risk of revolution
Requirements: Default
Cost: No Upkeep
Description: Tribal represents an agrarian society with a low population and a strong sense of community. Tribal societies have little desires except survival, so they are happy in areas with plentiful food and are not afraid of going to war. Tribal societies are generally the type of society that exists prior to the society becoming a civilization, so it is it is nearly impossible to maintain an empire.

> Proletariat
Bonuses: +40% production for the following buildings: Granary, Butchery, Forge, Lighthouse, Healer’s Hut, Temple, Aqueduct, Bakery, School, Public Transportation, Hospital, Water Treatment Plant; +2 health and +1 happiness in all cities after construction of Labor Union; +15% maintenance costs in all cities
Requirements: Democracy
Cost: Medium Upkeep
Description: Proletariat represents a society ruled by proletariats, otherwise known as the lower or working class. Under such a society, the interests of the proletariats are regarded as more important than that of the bourgeois. Early in history, a Proletariat society would place production of buildings necessary for farmers and artisans in top priority, and in modern times a Proletariat society would build public works more cheaply. Neo-liberalism, populism and progressivism are modern examples of Proletariat ideology.

> Bourgeois
Bonuses: +40% production for the following buildings: Library, Market, Jewellery, Brothel, Doctor’s Office, Port, University, Factory, Oil Refinery, Skyscraper, Industrial Park, Power Plants; +2 happiness in all cities after construction of Central Bank; +15% maintenance costs in all cities
Requirements: Monarchy
Cost: Medium Upkeep
Description: Bourgeois represents a society ruled by the bourgeois, otherwise known as the middle and upper classes. Under such a society, the interests of the bourgeois is regarded as more important than that of the proletariats. Early, a Bourgeois society would place production of buildings necessary for merchants, scientists and bankers in top priority, and in modern times a Bourgeois society would build industrial buildings more cheaply. Protectionism and in some countries conservatism are modern examples of Bourgeois ideology.

> Feudal
Bonuses: +1 happiness per Noble specialist; workers build improvements 50% faster; +1 unhealthiness in all cities; can build Manor building; +1 food from workshops; can sacrifice population to finish production
Requirements: Feudalism
Cost: High Upkeep
Description: Feudal in most instances represents the social structure used during the Medieval period. It consists of peasants bound by contract as serfs to lords. The lords own manors with large amounts of farmland which the serfs work for payment and protection. However, as demonstrated by Friedrich Hayek in his novel Road to Serfdom, the practices of economic central-planning governments can lead to a modern form of feudalism, replacing the lords with the government and the serfs with all citizens.

> Liberal
Bonuses: +50% culture in all cities; +50% Great Person birthrate; +1 extra happiness from Broadcast Towers; +25% war weariness; +1 production from Village, Town; cannot be combined with Fascist or Communist government civics
Requirements: Liberalism
Cost: No Upkeep
Description: Liberal represents the liberal political ideology. A liberal society regards civil liberties, free speech and being the best you can be with great worth. Due to the acceptance of civil liberties, a Liberal society cannot live under a Fascist or Communist government, both of which operate by prohibiting liberty.

> Nationalist
Bonuses: +10 free units; no unhappiness from drafting; foreign corporations have no effect; -25% war weariness; no risk of revolution
Requirements: Nationalism
Cost: High Upkeep
Description: Nationalist represents a society that believes people should work and fight for their country over themselves. Nationalism leads to a higher number of volunteer soldiers, less anger over conscription, and less anger over a long war. However, nationalism also leads to a large sense of nativism and a lack of acceptance of buying imports.

> Marxist
Bonuses: +1 happiness with Communist government civic; +1 happiness with Planned economy civic; +1 food from workshop
Requirements: Marxism
Cost: Low Upkeep
Description: Marxist represents a society that believes capitalism exploits workers and believes in an abolition of social class structure. Marxism is often considered to be what led to the creation of communism, socialism and planned economies.

Economy
Economy represents the economic policy the government has in place. Every economic civic has bearing on commerce and trade in your civilization.

> Barter
Bonuses: All wealth is converted to commerce; +1 commerce from Farm, Pasture, Workshop, Plantation, Orchard
Requirements: Default
Cost: No Upkeep
Description: Barter represents an economy with a lack of currency. The economy runs on the exchange of goods and services without a medium of exchange. As there is no currency, money cannot be added to the treasury and is instead converted directly into commerce. Since barter economies rely on the exchange of goods, improvements that produce goods improve the economy better than cottages.

> Slavery
Bonuses: Can sacrifice population to finish production; Unlimited Slaves; +1 commerce from Plantation, Workshop; +1 happiness and +1 unhealthiness per Slave specialist
Requirements: Slavery
Cost: Low Upkeep
Description: Slavery represents an economy that requires the enslavement or involuntary servitude of humans in order for the economy to function. Slavery economies often involve the collection of cash crops, the mass production of products, and a plethora of building projects. Famous examples of economies with slavery at its foundation are Greek Sparta, the Roman Empire, Egypt, and the more modern Confederate States of America.

> Mercantile
Bonuses: No foreign trade routes with non-Mercantile-using civilizations; +1 commerce from domestic trade routes; +50% increase of wealth in treasury
Requirements: Mercantilism
Cost: Medium Upkeep
Description: Mercantile represents an economy using the mercantile system. The mercantile system believes that the volume of the world economy is constant and the prosperity of a nation is equivalent to the amount capital owned by that country. Capital is represented by gold and silver bullion owned by the government, and the government actively attempts to make the exports higher than imports in order to create a net gain of capital. The government does this by increasing tariffs, or taxes on imports. Civilizations not using the mercantile system tend to choose not to trade with mercantilist nations due to the high tariffs, so trade is restricted to domestic trade and foreign trade with other mercantilist nations where the tariffs balance out. Some scholars consider it to be an early form of capitalism while others consider it to be an entirely different economic theory.

> Laissez-Faire
Bonuses: +1 trade routes in all cities; double development speed of cottages, hamlets, villages and mines; +1 production from cottages, villages and mines; Central Bank has no effect until after discovery of Industrialism; Labor Union has no effect; +1 commerce on all road and railroad tiles; +1 unhealthiness in all cities
Requirements: Economics
Cost: Low Upkeep
Description: Laissez-Faire is a French term meaning “let do.” Laissez-Faire represents many types of capitalism, including the Chicago School, the Austrian School, monetarism, and supply-side economics, all of which believe the government should not intervene in the economy through regulations. Until the formation of the Federal Reserve System, laissez-faire economists were against the idea of a Central Bank. Due to lack of regulations, workers prefer having higher wages than better working environments, thus decreasing their health. Time periods using laissez-faire economics are characterized as having a massive boost in production and increased foreign and domestic trade.

> Planned
Bonuses: +1 food and +1 commerce from workshop; +50% production of World Wonders; +50% production of Projects; no trade routes; +25% maintenance costs in all cities; +50% corporate maintenance costs; -25% commerce in all cities
Requirements: Communism
Cost: High Upkeep
Description: Planned represents an economy completely controlled, owned and planned by the government, otherwise known as state capitalism. Under a planned economy, all labor, capital, production, agriculture, utilities, and finances are run by the government, and all service businesses are owned by the government. Because there are no private companies, no trade exists. Planned economies are able to concentrate their resources on major projects such as world wonders and world projects, but are very costly to maintain.

> Keynesian
Bonuses: Can use wealth to hurry production; +25% corporate maintenance costs
Requirements: Industrialism
Cost: Medium Upkeep
Description: Keynesian represents the form of capitalism as advocated by economist John Maynard Keynes. Keynes advocated a mixed economy where the government intervenes in the economy in order to increase demand and stimulate the economy. The expensive regulations and bureaucracy used to maintain the interventionist policies come from taxation with a bulk of the taxes coming from corporations. Keynesian economists believe in smoothing the business cycle, which causes booms and busts, by raising taxes and interest rates to cool the economy and lowering taxes and interest rates to stimulate it. The result is a relatively stable economy void of depressions and panics, but also of giant boom periods. Keynesians also believe the government should actively invest in infrastructure as a method of increasing demand.

> Corporatist
Bonuses: +1 trade routes in all cities; corporations that use the same resources can coexist in the same city; spreading corporations costs no wealth; can build unlimited executives; foreign corporations have no effect ; +5 unhappiness in all cities
Requirements: Globalization
Cost: High Upkeep
Description: Corporatist represents an economic policy that is geared toward giving the highest possible profits and highest possible growth to domestic corporations at the expense of consumers and workers. Corporatism can be caused either by corporate executives running the government or from bribes by corporate lobbyists. Corporatism leads to a large amount of wealth accumulated by the government and a much lower cost of maintaining corporations, but it severely angers the bulk of society: the working class, so it should only be used if you are sure you can satisfy the people with buildings and resources. As of now, no country has employed a corporatist economy.
Religion
Religion is a broad category that represents with different civics the relationship between the clergy and the state, how religion is spread, and the general beliefs toward religion itself.

> Prophets
Bonuses: +1 happiness with The Oracle; no state religion; all religions in your civilization spread (like having a Temple) without Open Borders; can build missionaries without monasteries
Requirements: Default
Cost: No Upkeep
Description: Prophets represents religion spreading through the orations of wandering prophets. The state is too primitive at this point in order to control the spread of religion, so religions spread easily throughout your civilization and foreign civilizations geographically near you without the need of open borders agreements since the prophets have no political allegiance.

> Imperial Cult
Bonuses: +7 free units; +1 experience for new military units; +2 happiness with Monument; -25% culture in all cities
Requirements: Mysticism
Cost: High Upkeep
Description: Imperial Cult represents a state-run cult that forces all citizens to worship the civilization’s rulers as gods. The state uses this religion as justification for military campaigns. A classic example of a civilization employing an imperial cult is ancient Egypt and modern North Korea.

> Free Church
Bonuses: Can build missionaries without Monasteries; cities with state religion build buildings +25% faster; +2 happiness in cities with state religion; +50% Great Person birthrate in all cities; +1 trade route and 25% commerce in holy city of state religion
Requirements: Monotheism
Cost: Medium Upkeep
Description: Free Church represents a strong central church that is independent from the state. Technically, the state has authority over the church, but the church is often exhibits more power than the state. In some cases, a strong free church can infiltrate the state and employ theocracy, but not in all cases. An example of a strong free church is the Roman Catholic church during the Medieval era.

> State Church
Bonuses: Can build missionaries without Monasteries; cities with state religion build buildings +25% faster; +25% culture in all cities; -25% science in all cities; +1 trade route and +25% commerce in capital city
Requirements: Theology
Cost: Medium Upkeep
Description: State Church represents a religion run by a church that is owned and operated by the government. In a theocracy, the clergy have power over the state, but in a state church the state has power over the clergy. Similarly to Free Church, the church is powerful and has influence on the civilization. However, commerce and trade increases in the capital city rather than the holy city due to the state’s centralization of religion.

> Intolerant
Bonuses: Can build Crusader without King Richard’s Crusade; all new Gunpowder units start with Fanatic promotion; +7 free units; must have state religion; all non-state religions are removed from all cities in your civilization except holy cities; no non-state religion spread; -50% science in all cities
Requirements: Fundamentalism
Cost: High Upkeep
Description: Intolerant represents a society that is extremely intolerant of all non-state religions and scientific research that could undermine their religion. An intolerant society, with the help of the church and/or the state, eradicates all non-state religions in your civilization through an inquisition. In addition, all soldiers are conditioned to fight to the death for their religion and are guaranteed a good afterlife if they do so. Intolerant is great for creating a massive religious military campaign, known as a crusade or holy war, but completely undermines all scientific and technological advancement. Examples of intolerance are Europe during the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and modern Islamic Jihadists.

> Secular
Bonuses: No state religion; +1 happiness per non-state religion in a city; +50% culture in all cities
Requirements: Humanism
Cost: Low Upkeep
Description: Secular represents a complete separation of church and state. Specific religions are given no special benefits from the state and all religions are accepted and guaranteed rights in the civilization. An example is the United States.

> Atheist
Bonuses: No state religion; religions have no effect; +1 unhappiness per non-state religion in a city; +50% science in all cities; +1 happiness from Broadcast Tower; +1 happiness from Theater; no spread of non-state religion
Requirements: Biology
Cost: Medium Upkeep
Description: Atheist represents a society with a distrust of all religions and atheism set as the state religion. Religions are not allowed to hold public displays nor try to convert others to their religion, which angers anyone who practices a religion. However, religions are allowed to preach and exhibit their history on the radio and in plays, which helps balance the unhappiness.

 

[Big Heb]

(continued)

Welfare
Welfare represents how the poor and struggling receive assistance to survive.

> Charity
Bonuses: +1 health from Healer’s Hut; +1 happiness from Granary
Requirements: Default
Cost: No Upkeep
Description: Charity represents unorganized charity as a means of welfare for the poor. Local healers and generous wealthy farmers are the source of welfare for most poor people.

> Church
Bonuses: +1 health from Temple; +1 happiness per Priest specialist; +2 health from Cathedral
Requirements: Priesthood
Cost: Low Upkeep
Description: Church represents welfare supplied by the church. People who attend religious ceremonies and prayer put food into a charity box and the poor can come to collect food if they need it.

> Private
Bonuses: +1 happiness and +1 healthiness per Merchant specialist; -5% commerce in all cities; +1 healthiness per corporation in a city; +5% science in all cities
Requirements: Trade
Cost: Low Upkeep
Description: Private represents organized private charity as a means of welfare for the poor. Wealthy merchants and corporate executives, due to moral beliefs or to create a reputation of generosity, give money and food to charity organizations and fund research projects that could benefit the poor.

> Subsidized
Bonuses: +2 health in all cities; +15% science in all cities; +15% commerce in all cities; -15% production in all cities; +25% Great Person birthrate
Requirements: Social Contract
Cost: Medium Upkeep
Description: Subsidized represents the government putting in place a progressive income tax where the rich pay higher taxes and the revenue is used to subsidize low income housing, food stamps, ETC. Also included is free public education for elementary, junior high, and high school for children, which puts more people into the fields of science and business.

> Socialized
Bonuses: +5 happiness and +5 health in all cities; -40% commerce in all cities; +15% science in all cities; +25% corporate maintenance costs
Requirements: Labor Union
Cost: High Upkeep
Description: Socialized represents the government giving free universal healthcare and free universal college educations to all citizens. Socialized welfare makes the bulk of society very happy (except the top 5%) and very healthy, but removes many industries from the market, and the ridiculous tax rate harms commerce dramatically.


> Public Works
Bonuses: +25% normal building production; +25% National Wonder production; workers build improvements 50% faster
Requirements: Mass Transit
Cost: Medium Upkeep
Description: Public Works represents the government using tax money to fund public infrastructure.

> Corporate
Bonuses: -50% corporate maintenance costs; +1 unhappiness in all cities
Requirements: Logistics
Cost: Medium Upkeep
Description: Corporate represents the government using tax money to help corporations expand and maintain themselves.

Future
Future civics represent theoretical civic ideas that could rise due to new technology and globalization. You may pick one future civic from the list to use at a time and each future civic belongs to the other civic columns and replaces the other civics from that column (or two in some cases). Note that this column is still under production, so if any of you have a future idea feel free to post it.

> Pre-Future
Bonuses: None
Requirements: Default
Cost: No Upkeep
Description: Pre-Future is the filler you use until the future techs are available. It replaces no civics and does nothing.

> Open Source Governance (Government/Power)
Bonuses: -50% maintenance costs in all cities; +50% war weariness; +25% commerce in all cities; +3 happiness in all cities
Requirements: Fiber Optics; Virtual Reality; someone having built the Internet
Cost: Low Upkeep
Description: Open source governance is a political philosophy which advocates the application of the philosophies of the open source and open content movements to democratic principles in order to enable any interested citizen to add to the creation of policy, as with a wiki document. Legislation is democratically opened to the general citizenry in this way, allowing policy development to benefit from the collected wisdom of the people as a whole. Some envision this form of governance as a post-national "virtual state" governing structure, where policy-setting is decoupled from territorial management. Some models are significantly more sophisticated than a wiki, incorporating levels of control or scoring to mediate disputes. In any event, the idea demonstrates the still untapped potential of how open source philosophies can merge with government. (www.wikipedia.org)
In game terms, this means very little tax money will be used on corruption and the rulers’ payroll, resulting in an increase in commerce and a very happy populace.

> Anarcho-Capitalism (Government/Economy)
Bonuses: +1 unhappiness in all cities; +1 unhealthiness in all cities; no maintenance costs in all cities; +2 commerce from Courthouse; +100% commerce in all cities
Requirements: Conglomerates
Cost: No Upkeep
Description: Anarcho-capitalism (also known as free-market anarchism)[1] is an individualist anarchist[2] political philosophy that advocates the elimination of the state and the provision of security from aggression against person and property by the private sector in a free market. In an anarcho-capitalist society, law enforcement, courts, national defense, and all other security services would be provided by voluntarily-funded competitors rather than through compulsory taxation. Nonintrusive personal and economic activities would not be regulated, because the natural laws of the market - rather than politics - would order society. Anarcho-capitalists argue for a society based in voluntary trade of private property (including money, consumer goods, land, and capital goods) and services in order to maximize individual liberty and prosperity, but also recognize charity and communal arrangements as part of the same voluntary ethic.[3] Though anarcho-capitalists are known for asserting a right to private (individualized or joint non-public) property, non-state community property can also exist in an anarcho-capitalist society.[4] For them, what is important is that it is acquired and transferred without help or hindrance from the compulsory state. Anarcho-capitalist libertarians believe that the only just, and/or most economically-beneficial, way to acquire property is through voluntary trade, gift, or labor-based original appropriation, rather than through aggression or fraud. (www.wikipedia.org)

> Noocracy (Government/Power)
Bonuses: +50% spaceship production; +50% science in all cities
Requirements: Superstring Theory
Cost: High Upkeep
Description: Noocracy, or "aristocracy of the wise", as defined by Plato, is a social and political system that is "based on the priority of human mind", according to Vladimir Vernadsky. As defined by Plato, Noocracy is considered to be the future political system of the entire human race, to replace Democracy, "the authority of the crowd", and other forms of government.

> Digital Economy (Economy)
Bonuses: All owned resources automatically connected to all your cities; all your cities connected to all foreign cities and able to make trade routes; +4 trade routes in all cities
Requirements: Advanced Computers; Computer Center built; The Internet built
Cost: High Upkeep
Description: A digital economy is an economy that is based on electronic goods and services produced by an electronic business and traded through electronic commerce. That is, a business with electronic production and management processes and that interacts with its partners and customers and conducts transactions through Internet and Web technologies. (www.wikipedia.org)

In this case, the technology of converting atoms into computer bits allows the buying and selling of tangible products via the Internet. Through virtual reality e-Marketplaces, people can buy and sell like eBay without needing to wait or pay for delivery. This boosts trade and connects every city in the world to a global online marketplace. The marketplace requires several advanced supercomputers to operate and costs money to maintain.


That is all I have so far.

Feel free to make criticisms wherever possible.

 

[Lawrie]

Wow!

Eventually when we're done, i will compile our work into a short doc for Zapp, as our official suggestions. Im sure he will read it because of the number of posts/research going on here (of course its his mod and he can pick or not pick whatever he chooses ) but my god, we'll have to make a mini civic component mod for all this hehe, its rather an epic.

I think its probably better in general if we are not specific about the bonuses (hammers, foods etc) but give a rough suggestion, as Zapp if he considers these will implement bonuses based on his own mod/game balancing anyway. - Also if guys get into debating the bonuses we'll soon find ourselves off topic -

Okay, now your post is brilliant Heb, so im gonna give this a good detailed reply tomorrow (its late here, but my timezone for this forum is all wrong lol, but this deserves a big detailed reply.)

Your doing great work, im truly delighted with the input your making. So I'll reply in detail tomorrow!

 

[Lawrie]

The descriptions look brilliant Big Heb, but i tell you what, lets leave them to the next stage (though ill comment on some -) lets first just get some very short definitions (almost bullet points) of what they should be good and bad it (to make this easier for Zapp to consider.) I'll annotate some of your suggestions (within the descriptions) correct me if i mischaracterise them! Oh I don't think any requirements are applicable (ingame code) but regardless of that i don't think there necessary really. I mean regarding communism, we've seen that in various forms around the world that would challenge anyones classic definition of what to expect!

Government

Chiefdom
+ more food
+ hammers
+ happiness from monuments
- higher maintenance

Notes - Interesting, I think this civic can represent less a single chiefdom ruling a civ, but the presumed collection of assorted chiefdoms. (akin to anarchy.) In that sense, it can give a small civ 'stability' out of its instability if you like. That is bereft of bonuses, (perhaps bar a little food) but with no maintenance, and less unhappiness (only within a limited number of cities) with excessive penalties beyond?


Despotism
+ military prod bonuses buildings/units
+ garrisson happiness bonuses

Notes - Yes this seems about right, Despots can be quite apolitical, and some of course were benign, however they were all obsessed with security. I've added garrisson happiness bonuses as, i think in any society where civil liberties dont assure the populace (they will be safe from being made to 'obey' by the govts security forces) then true enough they will do what their told without those guarantees (or of course rebel!)

Monarchy
+ more experienced military units
+ culture bonuses
+ unlimited nobles
+ longer golden age length
- more maintenance (added)

Notes - Yep, More experienced military units, and perhaps more costly, culture bonuses indeed. Yep, seems about right. Ive added more maintenance as a penalty - to imagine those expensive royal tastes!

Republic
+ more happiness
+ culture bonuses
+ less maintenance
+ more commerce
+ production bonuses from cottage tiles
- war weariness

Notes - Yep, I think there should be a lower war weariness factor than democracy, as we all know how war like our republics often are! Looks good, i don't think the culture bonus of monarchies should exceed republics however.

Fascist
+ garisson happiness
+ draft units
+ units get fanatic promotion
- High Upkeep
- more maintenance

Notes - This is a tricky one, high upkeep/more maintenance. Perhaps, higher upkeep, but im not sure about maintenance penalties.

Communist
+ commerce from workshops
+ faster unit production
- no cottage growth
- High Upkeep

Notes - Interesting, i don't know about the lack of cottage growth (some may want communist/capitalist govts, i mean look at China! Faster unit production seems right, they should be able to draft as well as the fascist - perhaps even more so! Im not sure about commerce from workshops, to represent the radically different economy we may want to add unlikely food bonuses to certain tiles (and maybe the commerce too.) interesting though.

Democracy
+ Commerce
+ food from cottage tiles
+ can draft units
- unhappiness with slavery civic
- war weariness

Notes - Not sure about the food from cottage tiles, certainly commerce bonus, not sure about drafting units though. Highest war weariness for sure.

Now I must get to bed haha, will continue comments tomorrow.

As a note, I think Vassalage looks like an improvement indeed, but I think Imperial Cult is probably too specific (Divine Cult is a little more generic) not that we don't all want to be Roman Emperors!

 

[FishFish]

I've not completely been following this thread, but if I want to just use these civics in the regular BTS game without the other parts of the RoN mod, how would I go about installing them? or just downloading this 'mini-mod'.

 

[Lawrie]

Well mate thats a good question - basically ill see about releasing it as a seperate mod component when its done.

First priority is to grovel to Zapp to consider applying it to his mod - but its a thorough process, we're taking our time to very carefully to get it right.

You look at the epic political discussions and you can see the detail going into this. Just to add i have massive respect for Zapp, what he's doing with this mod, is EPIC and challenging for any single guy.

 

[Big Heb]

Lawrie, how are the rest of the civics?

When I get the time I will make a condensed list with more general bonuses than the specific bonuses I have now.

 

[Lawrie]

Yes my friend, apolages for not getting back to the rest of them - im killed for time but i will tomorrow! Again you've done some great work there mate.

 

[Lawrie]

Right - Ok I am going to take Big Heb's suggestions, comment and somewhat para-phrase them into generic short descriptions. Such descriptions are only for our basic ease of understanding on the thread (as all this information gets overwhelming!) and isnt representing what descriptions they would have in the pedia.

Government

I think that looks fine Heb, Points I would reconsider are,

Chiefdom I think this should provide less bonuses, be volatile and unstable.
Despotism This should come availabe when Republic does probably (or a tech close to when it does.) As Despotism would itself lead to a country becoming a non-democratic republic. But such a concept requires republicanism. Personally i think if both were made available - the polar opposites, with republic, then that would give players a great branching choice.
Monarchy Yep very good.
Republic Looking good, but is the tech democracy available within the ancient period in RoM? Yep id say a modest war weariness, make the military bonuses of the alternatives higher, rather than compensating for the benefits of this civic by increasing war weariness (for as we know, the roman republic, or french republic were fairly scary.)
Fascist Yep looking fine - high upkeep but not high maintenance, big military production bonuses. Social penalties - unstable.
Communist Think it should have production bonuses (more hammers), and like fascism both these civics should have great draft bonuses and social penalties.
Democracy Yep looking good, dont think it should be able to draft though!


Power

Aristocracy Military bonuses? Garrison happiness bonus?
Bureacracy Maintenance bonus, increased gold?
Patrician Modest Happiness, extra gold/trade
Vassalage Production bonus, unhappiness, Garrison happiness bonus?
Senate More focused on trade, hammers, military
Parliament Mix of modest general bonuses, a wide moderate spectrum
President Higher happiness and unhappiness - military bonuses

All your suggested pre-requisites sound fine to me Heb.


Society

Tribal I think a modest happiness bonus for a limited number of cities, i dont think food bonuses are necessary.
Proletariat Yep I think your ideas sound good, and if there too complex to apply, then they'll at least give Zapp an impression to consider. I would maybe also add modest trade commerce penalties.
Bourgeious Again looking good, more commercial bonuses, more happiness and unhappiness?
Feudal Yep looking good
Liberal Again good.
Nationalist Id say it should retain revolution (in fact even increase it!) We must remember these society civics are an imposition on those who don't agree. Yep more militaristic benefits etc.
Marxism Yep, perhaps more bonuses in general, but looking good. All pre-requsite techs look good.


Economy

Barter Again perhaps no bonuses ?
Slavery Looking good, maybe not have the unhealthiness though, more bonuses from work improvements i think (especially mines!)
Mercantile The no foreign trade route aspect is a complete misunderstanding of mercantalism. Is there no way it can reduce imports, increase exports? Yep more commerce/ gold in pocket too for sure.
Laissez-Faire More trade/commerce, i would say more unhappiness too though. Without the protectionism of mercantalism life can hurt.
Planned Yep looking good.
Keynesian Cool
Corporatist Yep, the bonus would not necessary be more trade actually, just more money going straight to the coffers. Definately more unhappiness sure.


Religion
This all looks good to me, I think thats all looking good, though of course making imperial cult divine cult is perhaps better? mind you though hmm...

Free Church should be something people always demand at quite a cost.

State Church, should be unpopular, but beneficial in other means.

Intolerant - seems good.

Yep thats looking good - id say at present the USA is a bad example of Secularism though!

Welfare
I think that is more or less looking good. I think the corporatisation of welfare might be even less popular than 1 unhappy face haha.


In general it would be good for these civics to create more happy and sometimes more unhappy faces at the same time? If possible - as we can then represent the polarisation of certain political views and decisions the player makes. Which would be great if they can have subtle effects on the revolution index.


Future

Open Source Governance - yeah thats quite good actually, maybe a better name though eh? But well done.

Anarcho-Capitalism - I dont really know about that one - too hard for that choice not to conflict with economic civic chosen.

Digital Economy - This sounds great, yep very nice, dont know if that bonus is too strong but looking good.

Ok so for the futures - we got,

1 that effects government infrastructure
2 an economic bonus

Okay, perhaps something to do with Genetics - human life expectancy etc? superhuman type thing? Something like -

Genetic Idealism - health bonuses, some unhappiness (at the morality etc)

Any other suggestions guys? I think we're getting there.

 

[cr0ws]

I for one would like to see more spy options...specifically from past civ games, like bribe or sabotage foreign military units.

 

[Lawrie]

Sure that would be cool, but bare in mind this thread is just about the civic options - and such like - and its zapps mod, why not make a new topic to discuss that?

 

[Jabarto]

I feel a little intimdated posting here, what with all the epic discussion that I haven't participated in, but I think a few of those modifiers are a little too extreme. Particularly the Socialist civic - maybe the bonuses could be tied to buildings, like they are now, or reduced, or something. But -40% wealth sounds like too much. Ditto the 50% science bonus for Atheism.

I think Slavery should have medium or high upkeep, too, or perhaps some other penalty. Whipping is incredibly powerful, and I liked the science and culture penalties you get for being able to do it.

 

[Big Heb]

Chiefdom I think this should provide less bonuses, be volatile and unstable.

Better idea.

Despotism This should come availabe when Republic does probably (or a tech close to when it does.) As Despotism would itself lead to a country becoming a non-democratic republic. But such a concept requires republicanism. Personally i think if both were made available - the polar opposites, with republic, then that would give players a great branching choice.

Monarchy and Democracy are available near each other. I see Despotism as a giant hammer. Leaves you vulnerable in other areas, but packs a big punch. Republic could force the player to play in a very specific way (follow the Constitution) while Monarchy would allow more free-roam.

Democracy Yep looking good, dont think it should be able to draft though!

Civil War? World War I? Vietnam War? The U.S. used conscription in the first and selective service in the last two. If the country elects a pro-war president/Congress/parliament, then at least 51% support going to war. Also, modern representative democracies have pretty powerful central governments.

Mercantile The no foreign trade route aspect is a complete misunderstanding of mercantalism. Is there no way it can reduce imports, increase exports? Yep more commerce/ gold in pocket too for sure.

I am no expert on mercantilism, so I may be wrong, but I believe mercantilism was characterized by high tariffs to make sure there were more exports than imports because it would result in a net gain of capital. When trading with capitalist countries, I doubt the high tariffs are going to energize many industries to trade with them. Perhaps instead just -1 commerce from foreign trade routes to non-mercantilist countries to represent less trading? In the pre-Adam Smith days when everyone was mercantilist, it would not matter much since everyone had high tariffs.

New Civic Update: Version 0.11

Government
To build on your idea of branching off governments, I redid some of the effects to represent the polarizing ideas, and grouped them all together in essentially different groups. The Ancient group consists of just Chiefdom, representing the time when there was not much variation in government and humans were still developing. The Classical/Medieval group consists of three: Despotism, Monarchy and Republic, with Despotism as the military extreme, Republic as the domestic extreme and Monarchy as the middle ground. Then we have the Modern group, which also consists of three: Fascist, Democracy and Communist, all of which mirror the old governments. Fascist is the military extreme, Communist is the domestic extreme and Democracy is the middle ground. Republic and Despotism get a boost, but both represent two “radical” governments.

Name: Chiefdom
Requirements: Default
General Effects: +1 unhappiness per population; +1 happiness w/ Granary; +1 food from river tiles; no chance of revolt
Reason: The idea behind Chiefdom is to depict the Neolithic revolution. The idea is quick growth to a population of about 3 or 4 depending on food resources, and then have harsh penalties to contain it at that level until new governments arrive. Having no revolution depicts the communal idea behind chiefdoms rather than the flex of military muscle that other governments have, and makes it so the unhappiness and unhealthiness does not make the civilization fall but instead just keep it small.

Name: Despotism
Requirements: Military Training
General Effects: Much faster military production (+50%?); garrison happiness bonus from Police Squad; can draft units; much less commerce and research; base unhappiness penalty; less support costs for military units; all Great People points converted to Great General points; negative for Revolution
Reason: Despotism could act as a branching from Republic, but the only historical branching I see is by polarizing foreign expansion with domestic expansion. Then Monarchy could act as the middle ground. The idea behind despotism is not a small but quality professional army, but fielding a large, inexperienced army. Conquering other nations is easier since you have a giant army and can afford to field it, but your serious impact to commerce and research will take a toll on your army when your enemies start fielding more advanced units (such as your horde of Axemen versus a bunch of Longbowmen). The garrison bonus from Police Squad gives it a boost in the modern age, since Despotism still exists today in military dictatorships. In modern times, Despotism is the radical unstable military extreme.

Name: Monarchy
Requirements: Monarchy
General Effects: experience for new units; +50% culture; unlimited Nobles; extra Golden Age length; positive for Revolution; high maintenance costs; +1 support costs for units
Reason: With Despotism representing the iron war machine, Monarchy represents the middle ground. It is neither progressive nor repressive to research and commerce, like Chiefdom, but unlike Chiefdom it does not try to contain your growth and actually spurs your land area with the culture bonus. It is beneficial to military, but rather than field a large horde or keep a small defensive force you field a smaller but better trained army. This seemingly-wonderful middle ground is off-set by high maintenance costs, so really the big three governments you can pick in the Classical era are pretty balanced.

Name: Republic
Requirements: Democracy (yes, it is researched right after Writing. Representative Democracy is the tech that comes later)
General Effects: Big bonus to commerce and research; some war weariness; no military bonus; big happiness and culture bonus after Constitution; giant nerfing of military power after Liberalism; positive for Revolution
Reason: Republic is going to be hard to code, because in history we have two ideas of a republic. First is the Athenian and Roman republics, which were indeed pretty scary, but then you have the Enlightenment republics which were more isolationist. This one is going to require some debating in order to represent both Republican ideas (Plato’s idea and John Locke’s idea). But early on it should give no military bonuses (but no penalties either since we have Athens and Rome) and bonuses to research and commerce, making it leaning domestic but still able to defend itself. After the Enlightenment, it should be like Pacifism in RoM now and give huge domestic power but completely nerf all military short of a peacekeeping force.

Name: Fascist
Requirements: Fascism
General Effects: high upkeep costs; garrison happiness bonus; can draft units; all military units start with Fanatic promotion; big penalty to Great People, culture, and research; all Great People points converted to Great General points; base unhappiness; negative for Revolution
Reason: It essentially mirrors what Despotism was in ancient times, but is slightly more stable (Fascist states were not very unstable in fact) than what Despotism was. But instead of fielding a giant army, you get a fanatical army and a suppressed people at home.

Name: Democracy
Requirements: Representative Democracy
General Effects: garrison bonus from Police Squad; war weariness; commerce bonus; food from cottages; can draft units; big culture bonus; positive for Revolution
Reason: Democracy is the middle ground, similar to Monarchy before it. Representative Democracy is not the pro-liberty, peaceful, free trade government that it is painted as being (Enlightenment Republic is that), but rather a populist form of government where the government just does what the people want while looking for their own interests in the process. An example to prove that is that pre-emptive military strikes, foreign occupations, universal healthcare, social security, ETC. would not exist in a Republic, but could in a Democracy. Democracy is essentially a Republic with some Fascist and Communist twists to it depending on the peoples’ opinions, which is why I put it as the middle ground and why you can draft units.

Name: Communist
Requirements: Communism, using Planned economy civic
General Effects: high unit production; basic production bonus; corporations have no effect; commerce from workshop; no Great Person points; negative for Revolution
Reason: Essentially the domestic extreme of the modern era. Instead of huge bonuses to research and commerce, you get huge research to production and some to commerce if you use workshops.

Power
I think I’ll touch upon some ideas for power. What you put seems good, but I disagree in some areas. Thinking about it, I think Power should not give new bonuses of itself, but enhance or reduce the bonuses that other civics give, since Power represents who in the government has political power. Aristocracy, Patrician and Vassalage are essentially combined in a group, with Senate, Parliament and President in another.

Name: Aristocracy
Requirements: Default
General Effects: Base unhealthiness; Noble specialists give +1 production; Slaves give no food penalty; no war weariness with Republic civic; negative for Revolution
Reason: Aristocracy is generally not an idea of military rule. It is more an example of extreme social class division, with hugely powerful nobles and near powerless commoners. In the ancient era, it doesn’t really do anything except limit your growth with unhealthiness, showing how the aristocracy really does not care about the welfare of the commoners. It gets more use in the Classical era when it can be combined with Republic to represent the imperialistic Athenian and Roman republics and with Monarchy to represent practically every stable monarchy in history. Again, I do not see it as a military civic.

Name: Patrician
Requirements: Trade
General Effects: Extra trade route; extra commerce from resource tiles; Merchant specialists give +3 research; war weariness; can construct Slave Market without Slavery civic; +1 production and commerce per corporation in city; negative for Revolution
Reason: While Aristocracy is more geared toward production, Patrician is more geared toward research and commerce. Unlike Aristocracy, its effects do not normally matter between governments, since wealth can get you power in practically any government short of anarchy. It can represent special interests and corporate lobbyists having political power in the modern era, which is why there is the bonus with corporations.

Name: Bureaucracy
Requirements: Civil Service
General Effects: Less maintenance costs; high upkeep costs; all bonuses to research, commerce, and production from other civics are increased by a percentage
Reason: Bureaucracy in Vanilla and RoM does not accurately depict what a bureaucracy really is. Bureaucracy is not keeping everything in the capital, but spreading out departments and increasing division of labor to specialize in particular areas. It is the same logic behind the assembly line. This bonus might not depict it well, but the idea is to enhance the bonuses of any civics that already give bonuses to commerce, research and production.

Name: Vassalage
Requirements: Feudalism
General Effects: 7 free units; +25% military production with Castle; +1 experience for new military units with Manor; positive for Revolution
Reason: Vassalage is not manorial serfdom, but rather the military practices of feudal Europe. Knights fight for lords and kings and in return get paid in return with land and in some cases political power. In terms of political power, it could mean the “warrior elite” or military has political power. This would increase incentive to fight in the military, thus giving free units and the military production bonus from a Castle. It also increases the incentive to run the Feudalism society civic and build Castles, which are paramount symbols of the Middle Ages.

Name: Parliament
Requirements: Constitution
General Effects: Not Sure
Reason: I see a Parliament as following the Westminster System. Parliaments are characterized by a lack of separation of powers and essentially a combination of the legislative and executive branches. So it could act as middle ground between legislative and executive political power. How to represent that in bonuses I do not know. Parliament is normally less democratic and itself could be ruled by an aristocracy and patricians, but perhaps what should separate it from that is the following of a constitution.

Name: Senate
Requirements: Liberalism
General Effects: Not Sure
Reason: I see a Senate as following the American federal system with massive separation of powers. Basically it would be a separation of the legislature and executive, with the legislature having power. Again, how to represent that in bonuses I do not know.

Name: President
Requirements: Representative Democracy
General Effects: Not Sure
Reason: I see President as representing a system where the executive has most of the power. So it could be a Senate or Parliament, or even any of the others, but with one man having more power than the rest. What separates it from being autocracy is that the people vote in the president, so I think happiness and unhappiness with actions dictated by the Society civic, as well as some military bonuses, are what President should represent.

Society
I see Society as not what the government forces you to think, but naturally what a majority of the civilization thinks and values.

Name: Tribal
Requirements: Default
General Effects: +3 base happiness; +1 unhappiness per number of cities; less war weariness
Reason: Rather than limiting population like Chiefdom, Tribal would limit the number of cities.

Name: Proletariat
Requirements: Democracy
General Effects: large production bonus to construction of buildings listed above; extra happiness and healthiness in all cities w/ Labor Union; higher maintenance
Reason: Helps the construction of buildings associated with the lower class, like public buildings and agricultural/artisan/religious buildings. It essentially specializes in food and production early, with health later on.

Name: Bourgeois
Requirements: Monarchy
General Effects: large production bonus to construction of buildings listed above; extra happiness and healthiness in all cities w/ Central Bank; higher maintenance
Reason: Same as Proletariat, but helps build buildings associated with the middle and upper classes, like luxury buildings, industries and financial buildings. It essentially specializes in commerce and happiness early, with production later on.

Name: Feudal
Requirements: Feudalism
General Effects: +1 happiness per Noble specialist; workers build improvements 50% faster; +1 unhealthiness in all cities; can build Manor building; +1 food from workshops; can sacrifice population to finish production
Reason: Just represents Feudal Europe and the life under a command economy.

Name: Liberal
Requirements: Liberalism
General Effects: culture bonus; Great Person bonus; happiness from Broadcast Towers; war weariness; +1 production from Village, Town; cannot be combined with Fascist or Communist government civics
Reason: Liberal is a political philosophy where liberty is dominant over everything else, so essentially it should help culture and give happiness with radio commentators saying whatever they want. The production and Great People bonuses represents the individualist values the people have (put work in and you will success mentality).

Name: Nationalist
Requirements: Nationalism
General Effects: free units; no unhappiness from drafting; foreign corporations have no effect; less war weariness; no risk of revolution; less culture
Reason: I see nationalism as not forced nationalism (that is fascism), but like having a majority of the country waving flags and buying bonds and such. It gives free units and people are not unhappy to be drafted since they want to fight for their country, and they are unwilling to buy foreign goods. They are committed to the country and not an ideology, so no revolutions can occur.

Name: Marxist
Requirements: Marxism
General Effects: +1 happiness with Communist government civic; +1 happiness with Planned economy civic; +1 food from workshop
Reason: I’m no expert on Marxism, so I do not know what they value besides economic equality. This one probably needs some work. Any Marxists here?

I'll do the rest later.