Civic questions

[Mantic0re]

I'm experimenting with Vassalage and warmongering and have a few questions.

1. Is the Vassalage civic required to obtain a Vassal state? I can think of good arguments for either answer and can't seem to maneuver myself into a test case in games. I've never actually attempted to subdue and vassalize a civilization. Kill or be killed!!!

2. If I can completely kill off a civilization in a war is there any reason to prefer making them a vassal state over eliminating them? I understand strategic advantages such as buffering your cities from invasion through your vassal, maintaining cultural borders so as to prevent holes for new cities from the AI, etc,. but don't you gain more from simply installing your own governor and popping borders in the recovery phase?

3. When and How do you get out of Slavery? I have trouble finding a reason to switch before Emancipation and maybe not even then. Yes, Caste System is great in certain situations but I find that my overall growth and development of my empire is stunted with Caste System. I am a bit puzzled as to how someone could really find happiness and food resources in enough quantities to justify Caste System at higher levels. Even on Warlords/Noble Difficulty(slowly moving up) it seems that Slavery is just too powerful to pass up. Lately I find myself using it throughout the entire game. In later stages I will often let my core cities grow larger for more sustained hammer output but still whip regularly in my 2nd tier and frontier cities.

4. Is the unhappiness from non-Emancipation a joke? I was hoping to choke other civs with it (and hogging/destroying all thier happiness resources). I barely notice Emancipation unhappiness when I maintain Slavery to War/Whip.

Thanks again for all the tips and analysis. Civfanatics Rocks!!!

 

[shyuhe]

1. No. Just the tech Feudalism.

2. You get 1 in all cities with a vassal and can demand tribute and force-trade resources. You can also assign research and trade with them in merc.

3. Caste is good if you can afford specialists and workshops. Serfdom if you're spiritual and have lots of land to improve. Also caste + SP is ridiculous in terms of raw hammer production.

4. Emancipation unhappiness is not a joke. Depending on the game settings and year, it'll grow. I've seen 7-8 from it before.

 

[timmy827]

2. People have wildly diverging opinions of vassals. Here's my 2 cents (shuyhe's details are all correct). For ones that you conquer, it's usually only worth it late in the game. You are right that you get more out of their land/cities if you own them, so it's generally worth taking everything (maybe vassaling when they are down to iceball cities). If you are close to domination, it can be faster to claim 1/2 of their land instantly by vassaling (and moving on to the next target) rather than waiting for resistance and border expansions.

The ability to direct research can be great for voluntary vassals, but rarely for conquered - if you've hurt them enough to capitulate their research is usually crippled; the odds of getting them Friendly for monopoly trades is rare (and they may hate you enough to not trade at all). Also, taking vassals screws up your relations with other civs; you get a visible minus, and all actual diplomacy towards you (whether they will trade, DOW, etc) is based not on their attitude towards you but their average attitude towards all of your vassals.

4. Yes, it can get very serious. It's dependent on the # of civs running it, so if you're the only one with Democracy you won't affect the AI's much.

 

[Doom Scythe]

Everything shyuhe said. Some additional comments.

2. Reduced maintenance costs is one of them. I usually play on a Large map (I like having lots of opponents) and Vassal states is godsend. Sure, you incur some additional Upkeep through Number of Cities Upkeep, but you get some savings by not having the Distance From Capital Upkeep. When I go for Domination on Noble, I usually kill off the first opponent and captipulate the rest of them. Killing all of them requires too much effort, and is usually not worth it as they will have small towns in the tundra of desert.

3. Funny that you brought this up. I almost never used Slavery, with the exception of completing 1 or 2 wonders. I usually keep it under Tribalism until I get Serfdom. I just dislike the Slave revolts.

3. Emancipation unhappiness can get pretty bad. If you're running on a thin margin of happy faces, having 3 additional unhappy faces can be really bad.

 

[UWHabs]

2. People have wildly diverging opinions of vassals. Here's my 2 cents (shuyhe's details are all correct). For ones that you conquer, it's usually only worth it late in the game. You are right that you get more out of their land/cities if you own them, so it's generally worth taking everything (maybe vassaling when they are down to iceball cities). If you are close to domination, it can be faster to claim 1/2 of their land instantly by vassaling (and moving on to the next target) rather than waiting for resistance and border expansions.

The ability to direct research can be great for voluntary vassals, but rarely for conquered - if you've hurt them enough to capitulate their research is usually crippled; the odds of getting them Friendly for monopoly trades is rare (and they may hate you enough to not trade at all). Also, taking vassals screws up your relations with other civs; you get a visible minus, and all actual diplomacy towards you (whether they will trade, DOW, etc) is based not on their attitude towards you but their average attitude towards all of your vassals.

4. Yes, it can get very serious. It's dependent on the # of civs running it, so if you're the only one with Democracy you won't affect the AI's much.

Hmm, that got me thinking. Say everyone in the game are very friendly with each other, except they hate you. Since they average their relationship, if you take 1 or 2 vassals from them, they may still be furious with you, but friendly with your vassals, and thus may actually like you more?

 

[JBossch]

Everything shyuhe said. Some additional comments.

3. Funny that you brought this up. I almost never used Slavery, with the exception of completing 1 or 2 wonders. I usually keep it under Tribalism until I get Serfdom. I just dislike the Slave revolts.

You are severely underestimating slavery. Not that it has to be run for the whole game but it is crucial in the early stages. It just takes too long to build things without slavery on higher difficulties. Focus on food-rich cities and whip, whip, whip, always for 2 or more pop. Also, if I am not mistaken there is a big penalty for whipping wonders.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Whip > chop.

People grow back. Trees do not.

 

[Doom Scythe]

You are severely underestimating slavery. Not that it has to be run for the whole game but it is crucial in the early stages. It just takes too long to build things without slavery on higher difficulties. Focus on food-rich cities and whip, whip, whip, always for 2 or more pop. Also, if I am not mistaken there is a big penalty for whipping wonders.

I agree that there's a big penalty for whipping wonders. That's why I don't do it often. Hmmm, perhaps it is just my style of play. Think I will give more whipping a try.

Whip > chop.

People grow back. Trees do not.

I don't really chop either, except if the surrounding has more than 6 plots of trees. Perhaps it's the difficulty that I'm playing in. I usually play Noble/Prince only, but since this is what the OP asked, I thought it is appropriate for his/her case.

 

[Skallagrimson]

My chop policy is:

Border and coastal cities: squares accessible to an invading army, on the same side of a river with the city in question, always chop. Squared adjacent and across the river, "may" chop if the land is needed, "should" chop if Ragnar is on the radar.

GSS: chop all but 6 trees.

National Park: chop nothing.

Iron Works: chop only what you need for the food balance.

Other cities: minimize chopping in the BFC, partial chop in the gaps between cities (will keep some where it makes sense to have a forested fortress, or try my quixotic luch with forest preserves to try to regrow what's been chopped... shyeah, right...)

 

[Mantic0re]

thank you for all the input. I just thought of a few related questions.

I'm working mostly on OCC games because the total game time is 10% or less of what my normal games are. Faster games = more games = faster learning imo (Just ask TMIT). I think I'm a stronger player for doing this. I try to find and improve on my weaknesses during these OCC games. Lately I've been struggling with Diplomacy in a string of starts giving me absolutely no military resources. Walking quietly with no big stick $%^#ing impossible.

I've not really experimented with vassalage but I really identify with the comment Doom Scythe made about dom/conquest taking too much effort to completely kill. I've noticed a pattern of warfare. At the start I'll typically have enough heat to wipe the map but by the time I've got them to 1 or 2 cities I'm limping along or simply spread out and vulnerable so that the last of each empire is exponentially harder.

1. Is it even possible to vassalize someone in a OCC game? I thought 1 option for separation was when the slave unit obtained more than X% of the master state's land area. If that condition isn't nullified in some way it seems like any vassal situation would be immediately canceled.

2. When do you typically capitulate your target civ? ASAP or when they are hanging by a thread? What kind of impact does each option have?

 

[Skallagrimson]

I usually play Continents, and go for a conquest of all the continent I'm on. If they have an island colony somewhere, I vassalize that, otherwise, black dirt and salt, no memory of who or what they were, all my land now.

Then switch to defensive mode, trade, diplomacy, subtle manipulation, and space race.

 

[Joshua368]

1. Is it even possible to vassalize someone in a OCC game? I thought 1 option for separation was when the slave unit obtained more than X% of the master state's land area. If that condition isn't nullified in some way it seems like any vassal situation would be immediately canceled.

When they reach the threshold they can break free, but they don't have to. If they're scared enough of you, they won't escape. Still a lot trickier with a tiny OCC empire.

OCC games are fun alternative for sure, but I wouldn't recommend making it your standard method of play.

2. When do you typically capitulate your target civ? ASAP or when they are hanging by a thread? What kind of impact does each option have?

Depends. What do you want from them? Great land? Removing a threat? Just a checklist so you can move on to conquering the next civ?

If you're trying to expand your empire, you should probably try to grab as much land as possible. Maybe capitulating when they're reduced to crappy tundra or ice cities that aren't really worth taking.

Then again, maybe you're going for the win and you want to just finish them off so you can quickly strike someone else before they get a technological edge. In that case capitulate as soon as possible and let the dominos fall.

Of course OCCs complicate all this, in a OOC I'd probably just recommend wiping the civs out one after the other, as capitulation is iffy to hold on to expecially since they will just re-expand onto razed territory.

And keep in mind all the pluses and minuses of owning vassals, before taking one:

PROS
- +1 happiness in all your cities
- All their resources are essentially yours. You can take your chances forcing them to give you resources (if they refuse, its war) or you can just trade with spares, vassalized civs are extremely generous here
- One less civilization in the way for conquest
- Half of their land and population goes into your domination total, as well as all of their votes in AP/UN; half their score goes into yours
- Foreign trade routes, even when in mercantilism
- Your cities automatically win culture wars within their big fat cross
- You can see their research without espionage, and direct it by telling them what to research
- Really easy to influence their civics and religion
- Defensive pact diplomacy bonus with capitulated civilization
- Biggest one, you save time in your war, letting you rebuild your economy or strike your next target earlier

CONS
- You cannot declare war again, the most obviously one. Usually they won't break free, and if you regret vassalizing them you can't undo it. If they are causing your cities to revolt, or you decide you want more land, or they shoot for a culture win, there's nothing you can do
- Negative diplomacy hit with all other civilizations
- They are not obliged in any way to share or trade techs with you, the restrictions here are the same as with normal civilizations, other than directing research
- If a city's culture actually reaches one of yours, it can cause revolts
- They skew diplomacy with other civilizations, who average out their attitude towards you with that of your vassals. (this is not shown ingame!) For example, friendly civs with you who are cautious with your vassals will act pleased. Conversely, furious civs with you who are friendly with your vassal will act cautious.
- Mess up future capitulation mechanics, civs won't vassalize unless they're in the bottom half of the power chart, and this includes your shattered little vassals
- They can break free if you aren't awesome enough

There, I think I got everything.

 

[peppe1]

If not spirtual:
I will go slavery -> caste -> slavery.

If i get pyramids you can run specialist with caste + representation pretty early in the game. Run caste for a while to get a super science city going then switch back to slavery and expand like normal. I usually run caste until i get oxford university in the super science city and settle a few great scientists 5+ should do. With library + university + oxford you don't need caste anymore. After that most scientists add more through bulbing than settling based on the number of turns left. Even without pyramids a similar city can produce a substantial amount of research until you can run representation.

With this method you can tech through a crash caused by rushing/expanding.

I never seem to switch off representation once its on.

With spiritual I rotate civics a lot since there is no anarchy.

Edit: Forgot, Build academy with the second scientist. Sometimes founding a second academy in second best science city will add a lot as well with a later scientist.

 

[mirthadir]

The biggest way to use (game) vassals is that they will always vote for you in AP/UN elections (unless they are running themselves), but they don't count against you for the cap. For instance a quick and easy shot to win is to build a Christian AP when you and your buddies are Jewish (requires you to swap state religion the turn before the AP palace is built), get a vassal (peaceful or war, doesn't matter) and then convert all your cities and all those of your vassal (you will both still be running Jewish state religion). Then quickly convert one tundra city for each ai. Quick and easy vote to win, very early and "easy" win.

On higher difficulties the AIs tend to suck in comparison to you at managing cities for production, but are better building units. Thus you can get pretty good returns from gifting back cities to AIs you've WS, mined, and wheeled over. You are going to have to gift military techs to your vassal, but they will spam huge amounts of troops (they have nothing else to build) and you can direct their SoD towards specific cities. A thin line of Vassal cities/culture is also nice to have between you and certain AIs who are both aggressive but also decent trading partners (i.e. Carthage); you don't get "our close borders". Besides when you take those border cities, quite often Carthagian (or whatever) culture will simply steal half the land anyways.

It is rare, but you can come out ahead by gifting back all your conquests. If you are going for a cultural victory (say because the war to kill the sucker took too long), you can found the culture corps quadfecta, gift back their land, and just force them to fork over the resources you want. Much cheaper (meaning you can run the culture slider at 100% easier), particularly if you've spread your corps to a few of their cities, and makes no dent in your culture rate.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

PROS
- +1 happiness in all your cities
- All their resources are essentially yours. You can take your chances forcing them to give you resources (if they refuse, its war) or you can just trade with spares, vassalized civs are extremely generous here
- One less civilization in the way for conquest
- Half of their land and population goes into your domination total, as well as all of their votes in AP/UN; half their score goes into yours
- Foreign trade routes, even when in mercantilism
- Your cities automatically win culture wars within their big fat cross
- You can see their research without espionage, and direct it by telling them what to research
- Really easy to influence their civics and religion
- Defensive pact diplomacy bonus with capitulated civilization
- Biggest one, you save time in your war, letting you rebuild your economy or strike your next target earlier

Forgot that you can direct them to a specific target city during war. Most of the times they agree but don't do anything. But sometimes I've seen a vassal put some real effort to conquer the city and actually capture it.
Of course, it's better to give them some reasonable targets, not some random city half way around the world.

 

[mirthadir]

Forgot that you can direct them to a specific target city during war. Most of the times they agree but don't do anything. But sometimes I've seen a vassal put some real effort to conquer the city and actually capture it.
Of course, it's better to give them some reasonable targets, not some random city half way around the world.

Give the AI good military tech, gift back to them a city (or four) with nothing but WS, mines, mills, and farms, and watch them pump out unit spam for you. Even better, if you are spiritual (or have CR), get them to go PS/SP maybe even caste and watch the AI troop bonus work for you.

 

[Joshua368]

Forgot that you can direct them to a specific target city during war. Most of the times they agree but don't do anything. But sometimes I've seen a vassal put some real effort to conquer the city and actually capture it.
Of course, it's better to give them some reasonable targets, not some random city half way around the world.

You can do that with any military ally, not just vassals. But vassals are military allies by default.