Civics: need modification?

[Colonel Kraken]

Are there some of you who aren't exactly satisfied with the civics options --perhaps even as simple as changing a few names. I've just started to think about this, some I don't have any concrete suggestions, but for some reason many of the options don't quite seem right to me.

My main concern is that it seems you could almost keep some of the most basic Civics and still have a very successful empire. I'm thinking things need to be tweaked so that it's obvious if you stick to the "old way" you're going to start to lag behind.

EDIT: Scroll down the thread to view some of the civics ideas. Check out subsequent pages for even more ideas from other Civers.

For even more ideas, check out Arbitrary Guy's ideas in this thread.

Also, check this out!

 

[grallon]

The problem, I think, is the way these are tied to the much streamlined (as in: lightened) techtree. Not enough technologies = not enough choices. This was a design decision that will need to be corrected - by us of course.

I for one intend, if at all possible, to greatly increase the size of the tech tree - therefore making it more realistic. I want techs with prerequisites such as buildings present in x number of cities + other techs + a certain level of culture... you get the idea. Same thing with the civics - make their availability dependant on a number of factors.

Really I detest the pretension of offering us a game that simulate the development of civilizations and yet that is actually a race to get the first space ship out. The linearity of it all bores me senseless ! You'd think that after 4 games they'd have gotten it right but no - of course not. Bahh !



G.

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

It seems to me that a major improvement would be giving each civic a negative effect as well. They all have only positive effects. This would be difficult, however, beacause, 1) balancing issues and 2) the xml options are basically only for good things.

 

[Colonel Kraken]

It seems to me that a major improvement would be giving each civic a negative effect as well. They all have only positive effects. This would be difficult, however, beacause, 1) balancing issues and 2) the xml options are basically only for good things.

This was exactly my thought.

Grallon, you bring up some good points. I'm a minimalist on modding. I like to do just enough to make things better, but no more. I don't like the idea of adding a ton of techs just to add a ton of techs. HOWEVER, I do like the idea of adding pre-req's other than or in addition to just technologies. I think things need to be more interconnected and have ramifications.

 

[White Elk]

I'm in agreement with the three of you.

And I'd like to see a couple more civics within each civic branch.
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[Spatzimaus]

Four things.

1> In Alpha Centauri, each of the Social Engineering choices (i.e., the civics) had two pluses and one minus. Some wonders could remove the minus from certain SE choices, and some other wonders gave different bonuses depending on which SE options you had running. You could do that here, if you wanted.

2> ArbitraryGuy: Several of the existing options DO have negatives. Medium or High upkeep is an obvious one, but a few are more straightforward; Mercantilism disallows foreign trade routes, Theocracy penalizes secondary religions, Pacifism makes troop maintenance more expensive, and Free Religion removes the bonuses of a State Religion. So clearly, the mechanism is there to add drawbacks, even ignoring the fact that you could probably just add a "bonus" that's a negative number.
On a more abstract level, the "negative" aspect of each civic is the fact that you're not choosing the others. For instance, only people with Universal Suffrage can spend money to rush production, so if you picked one of the other Government civics you'd be at a substantial disadvantage.

3> Colonel Kraken said: "I'm thinking things need to be tweaked so that it's obvious if you stick to the "old way" you're going to start to lag behind."
You will. Sure, you CAN stick with the original 5, but that'd be dumb. Look at each category:
Government: Any of the last three are viable, although I think most people will end up with Universal Suffrage or Representation.
Legal: The last two are clearly superior to the others, and I'd guess most people end at Free Speech.
Labor: Tribalism is completely inferior to the others, and Slavery and Serfdom aren't that good, either. So it's Caste System or Emancipation, and with Emancipation's offensive use I see it as the one everyone migrates to.
So, for three out of the five civic categories, you already have it greatly favoring switching to the newest and greatest civics. For Economy and Religion, any of the later four options (i.e., not the default one for each) would be viable. But anyone who sticks to the beginning five WILL lag behind.

4> White Elk: I'd agree, more civics would be nice. As part of my future mod, I'm adding one new one to each category, based on Alpha Centauri social engineering: Green, Knowledge, Cybernetic, Planned, and Eudaimonia.

 

[Isak]

2) the xml options are basically only for good things.

Not at all. Just about every 'Integer' value (that's all the xml elements beginning with a small 'i') allows a negative as well as a positive value. .. and I only say 'Just about' because I haven't tested them all, but I surely haven't run into any yet that don't allow negative values. Some of them have pretty stupid effects when you make them negatives though (like a negative production cost, for example), but still - it's allowed.

So, Civics can easily reduce the Birth rate of Great Persons, reduce Health in cities, subtract Experience from newly trained units, decrease the speed of Military unit production, etc., etc..

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

Not at all. Just about every 'Integer' value (that's all the xml elements beginning with a small 'i') allows a negative as well as a positive value. .. and I only say 'Just about' because I haven't tested them all, but I surely haven't run into any yet that don't allow negative values. Some of them have pretty stupid effects when you make them negatives though (like a negative production cost, for example), but still - it's allowed.

So, Civics can easily reduce the Birth rate of Great Persons, reduce Health in cities, subtract Experience from newly trained units, decrease the speed of Military unit production, etc., etc..

I was mostly thinking about civics that could give you unhappiness. If you put in a negative value for the religion happiness values you get "-1 in each city" instead of "+1 in each city" .

 

[Dr. Broom]

That isn't quite true Isak, I tried to change <iNonStateReligionHappiness>0</iNonStateReligionHappiness> to <iNonStateReligionHappiness>-1</iNonStateReligionHappiness> for organized religion and all it did was: +1231304 per (religion symbol) in a City.

 

[Isak]

That isn't quite true Isak, I tried to change <iNonStateReligionHappiness>0</iNonStateReligionHappiness> to <iNonStateReligionHappiness>-1</iNonStateReligionHappiness> for organized religion and all it did was: +1231304 per (religion symbol) in a City.

It works fine, just doesn't display correctly in the Civilopedia due to a conflict with the <bStateReligion> element being set to 1. Try setting the value to -1 for one of the Civics that don't have <bStateReligion> set to 1.

It also shows up a bit funny in the City screen, where it says "+1 "We want religious freedom". ...

But that should be possible to take care of by editing the text files, and possibly python a bit.

 

[Dr. Broom]

It didn't show that in the civilopedia, it showed it on the civics screen.

I am a bit confused when you say, "Try setting the value to -1 for one of the Civics that don't have <bStateReligion> set to 1." because if the bstatereligion is 0 it is a non state religion right? but I want to modify civics so that the player is penalized for having religions other than the state religion. (except for religious freedom) If I mod one that isn't state religion how will that help?

 

[Isak]

It didn't show that in the civilopedia, it showed it on the civics screen.

Yeah, the Civics screen probably uses the same code to display the effect as the Civilopedia.

I am a bit confused when you say, "Try setting the value to -1 for one of the Civics that don't have <bStateReligion> set to 1." because if the bstatereligion is 0 it is a non state religion right? but I want to modify civics so that the player is penalized for having religions other than the state religion. (except for religious freedom) If I mod one that isn't state religion how will that help?

Sorry, I wasn't being clear. It won't help you do that, just show you that it actually can work. To make it display correctly in the Pedia and Civics screen, you'll have to modify whatever is used to display the effect. I'll see if I can dig that out of the Python files (or find someone a bit more familiar with them to do it for me )

 

[Colonel Kraken]

To make it display correctly in the Pedia and Civics screen, you'll have to modify whatever is used to display the effect. I'll see if I can dig that out of the Python files (or find someone a bit more familiar with them to do it for me )

Do you know anything more about this, Isak?

 

[Colonel Kraken]

I've been thinking about this more in depth. I don't like the current civics because they seem muddled and disorganized, rarely making sense for the category they are in or having some of them at all.

I've been pondering some ideas, systems of government and social institutions. Here is what I've come up with:

HEAD of STATE
Who controls the state?

Chiefdom: Starting Civic. A tribal leader/tribal council makes the decisions for the tribe.
Despotism: A thug, military leader, or charismatic leader has seized control of society and protects himself with personal guards.
Monarchy: A member of the aristocracy, learned class, or other such member of society is considered the leader through divine appointment, heredity, or other such convention.
Oligarchy: A small group of leaders run the country either by appointment, tradition, or self-proclamation.
Representation: The government is run by representatives chosen by the people.
Direct Democracy: All citizens who wish to become involved in how society runs may choose to have a direct say.
Totalitarianism: A powerful central government led by a socially powerful individual(s).


GOVERNMENT
How is the state run?

Tribalism: Starting Civic. Tribal leaders direct family leaders how to conduct their daily lives.
Mercanary: Hired thugs carry out every desire of the head of state.
Feudalism: The head of state owns the country but divests his/her authority through lords who own and/or help care for the land.
Bureaucracy: The head of state is surrounded by advisors, leaders, governors and other individuals who carry out the day-to-day running of government.
Federalism: A relatively weak central government shares authority with autonomous/semi-autonomous territories/regions/cities.
Martial Law: Police/Military is a common presence on the street and impose the will of the state. Curfews are probably in place.
Secret Police: An internal security agency has its fingers everywhere in society in order to ensure compliance with the will of the state. Even the military has "advisors" attached to every unit and subunit to ensure compliance.


ECONOMY
How does the economy function?

Barter: Starting Civic. The economy is based on the exchange of goods. If any currency exists, it is not official and not used often.
Command: The government determines how property will be used, collects however much tax and "treasure" it wishes, and may even determine who will do what job. Typically, the government will collect "grain" to distribute to society in times of famine or depression.
Manorial: Peasants hold land from a lord of an estate in return for fixed dues in kind, money, and services
Mercantilism: The belief that a fixed amount of wealth existed in the world and government does all it can to accumulate as much of it as possible. The premise that national wealth and power are best served by increasing exports and collecting precious metals in return.
Liassez Faire: An economic doctrine that opposes governmental regulation of or interference in commerce beyond the minimum necessary for a free-enterprise system to operate according to its own economic laws.
Regulated Capitalism: The free market operates but government has laws to prevent monopolies, harming the consumer, general trade regulation and other laws it may deem necessary to control the behaviors of companies, corporations or individuals.
State Property: A regulated free market is dominated by state owned property, major commodities and means of production.


SOCIETY
What are the social conventions of society?

Familialism: Starting Civic. Your status, duties and obligations are to the family and your job is determined by birth order and/or gender.
Serfdom: Society dominated by peasant laborers who can be generally characterized as hereditarily attached to the manor in a state of semibondage, performing the servile duties of the lord/aristocracy.
Caste: Your positition in society is determined by birth. Either you are born privelaged or not.
Guild: Trade and social guilds dominate society. Your position in life is not determined by birth but you will probably do what your parents did. You may select a new trade, but you will be stuck with it for life moving from apprentice, to journeyman, and possibly to master.
Citizenship: You have civil rights simply for being a citizen of the state in which you reside. Government must make use of the rule of law to deal with its citizens.
Nationalsim: Citizens are generally free to move about and conduct themselves how they wish, but their desires are superceded by the needs of the state. Very strong social pressure is in place to ensure your do your duty to the "motherland".
Socialism: From each according to his ability to each according to his need.


RELIGION
How is religion used and viewed in society?

Paganism: Starting Civic. The religious beiefs of society are many, varied and relatively unorganized, based on mysticism, necromancy, and oral tradition.
Mythology: A semi-organized polytheism based on an oral tradition of stories set to explain every aspect of the world.
Organized Religion: A well organized, entrenched theology controls a large aspect of society and has powerful influence on government which must be ever mindful of appeasing the spiritual beliefs of the people.
Theocracy: The government is seen to be appointed by God or the gods and may even be seen as a god itself. Religious law controls all aspects of society.
Philosophy: The latest thoughts on the human condition are discussed, debated and continually revised. The spiritual condition of man is considered but may have no part in religion per se.
Humanism: Religion is the antithesis of humanity. Humanity is only limited by its own understanding of the universe. Scientific knowledge is the preeminent determination of how society should run, from the care of the environment to the raising of children.
Free Religion: Each individual determines his or her own religion and everyone is free to express his or her religious preference openly and worship in his or her own manner.



I haven't even begun to consider the benefits and negative aspects of these civics. Glaringly missing are Universal Suffrage, Slavery, and Free Speech. I really wish I could implement these separately as sort of major civics you impliment as suppliments to the above types of government --because I don't see how someone shouldn't be able to have many of these civics and not Universal Suffrage and other such things. Are there ways to add a 6th column to the civics sceen? What are some ideas of other ways these could be implemented.


I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on these civics ideas, how they could be implemented, better names, and additions or subtractions.

Thanks!

 

[Colonel Kraken]

I believe these civics allow for the representation of many of histories governments and societies. Here are a few examples:

Ancient Israel Pre-Moses: Chiefdom, Tribalism, Barter, Familialism, Paganism.
Ancient Egypt: Monarchy, Bureaucracy, Command, Caste, Theocracy.
Middle-Ages Europe: Monarchy, Feudalism, Manorial, Serfdom, Organized Religion.
18th Century Europe: Monarchy, Bureaucracy, Mercantilism, Guild, Organized Religion.
Pre- Civil War U.S. : Representation, Federalsim, Laissez Faire, Citizenship, Free Religion.
Fascist Germany: Totalitarianism, Martial Law, State Property, Nationalism, Humanism.
U.S.S.R. : Totalitarinism, Secret Police, Command, Socialism, Humanism.
Modern-day France: Representation, Bureaucracy, State Property, Citizenship, Free Religion.

 

[maxpublic]

Who controls the state?
How is the state run?

Civ confuses government type with government efficiency. What you're looking for is increasing government efficiency over time, which historically has nothing to do with the type of government that rules the society. There's no reason that a dictatorship has to be less efficient than a republic, for example, nor is there any evidence that a republic is more likely to be more technologically advanced than a non-representative form of government. We like to believe the propaganda, but for 99% of human history there's no chartable correlation.

I did away with government type and simply changed one civics branch to reflect increasing government efficiency over time. It's a linear progression, unlike some of the other civics I've developed.

ECONOMY
How does the economy function?

This is a difficult one, and I haven't gotten around to resolving it yet. While there's no correlation between the type of government and the efficiency of that government, there is one between government interference and economic efficiency. That is, the more government interference you have, the less efficient the economy becomes. That's been especially apparent since Keynesian economics has proven to be an abject failure.

If I were you, I'd leave techs to determine the complexity of the economy and use civics to decide how much the government interferes in that economy. The more interference, the less efficient the economy becomes. Since a rational player won't choose a government type that decreases economic prosperity without some real form of payoff, you could counterbalance this with an increase in happiness and health (i.e., health care combined with bread-and-circuses). A player could then decide which level of interference he or she likes the most of the choices given.

SOCIETY
What are the social conventions of society?

Socialism is a form of government interference in the economy, not a social convention. Serfdom is a legal and economic system.

RELIGION
How is religion used and viewed in society?

Your definition of humanism is incorrect. This would more properly be labeled antitheism. Not atheism, but antitheism. Humanists simply believe that the religious, and religious doctrine, should not determine the laws and mores of society, but that these should be arrived at by rational means. In other words, a fancy way of saying "separation of church and state", which is a core tenet of the United States (despite continued attempts by religious radicals to seize control of the state).

Max

 

[Colonel Kraken]

Your definition of humanism is incorrect.

Max

Perhaps I should have clarified: secular humanism.

I would like to see some of the civics you have come up with, Max.

Thanks,

CK

 

[maxpublic]

Perhaps I should have clarified: secular humanism.

The definition still isn't right. Humanists aren't anti-religion, they're against having the religious and religious institutions dictate the mores and laws of society.

Antitheists are anti-religion - period. They want religion eradicated.

Like I said, humanism is just separation of church and state. Humanists are fine with religion so long as the religious can't impose their view of how the world should be on everyone else by force. Perhaps more accurately, humanists don't care about religion unless the religious try to seize the government to promote their own agenda. It's a bit of rather bad propaganda by the religious right that brands humanists as anti-religion; but then, the religious right thinks that anyone who won't bend over and grab their ankles for them is 'the enemy'.

Max

 

[Colonel Kraken]

I think I struck a nerve . . .


Anyway, you going to share your civics ideas?

 

[dh_epic]

Colonel Kraken, I like your list very much. The challenge, however, will be balance.

Still, I might make a few suggestions.

Humanism-->State Atheism or Ban Religion (sounds more in line with what you're going for)

Under the religion column, I recommend Pacifism or Compassion -- which emphasizes the 'help the poor' and 'stop violence' undertones in most religions. The liberation theology movement in Latin America is just one such extreme example.

Socialism IS an economic system.

Column Suggestion

And I think the following should be in the same column -- be it society or otherwise. This is the "tie that binds" together all the cities in a civilization.

Decentralization: Default

City States (Ancient to Medieval): a federation of city states with some common languages cooperate. Each governor ruled, and they all cooperated for the few functions that were necessary. Relatively uncoordinated, but stable.

Imperialism (Classical to Enlightenment): Empire, centered around a person, family, or group. Empires grew far and wide, but were prone to collapse once their pillar fell (Caesar, Khan...). And Governors would rule in the name of the emperor or monarch.

Feudalism (Medieval to Enlightenment): Builds on the previous two. Empires were big but unstable. City states were stable, but uncoordinated, and small in scope. Feudal relations organized these fiefs into a hierarchy of relations. Feudalism is essentially fractal in design. You remove one link in the tree, and the tree readjusts and survives. Feudal relations are essentially relations of protection.

Nationalism (Enlightenment to Present): Nationalism toppled empires, because people pledged allegiance to an 'idea', not a man. That idea was based on common language, or common values, or so on. Nationalism could take many forms, from Religious Nationalism (theocracy, think Osama Bin Laden), or cultural nationalism (think Greece toppling the Ottoman Empire after centuries of rule), or civic nationalism (think early America) based on the participation of its citizens, or state nationalism (think Fascist Italy) where people exist strictly to boost the state.

Globalization (Industrial to Present): Whether you're the USSR who wanted an international worker party to spread influence across the globe, numerous Latin American countries changing to free market anarchy to allow American corporations to spread their influence, or Osama Bin Laden who wants global cooperation from all Islamic States... Globalization involves the spread of an ideology. If you achieve success, borders are little more than a formality.

I might throw in there something more like early England (off and on) that's neither Feudal nor Imperial. Not monarchy -- it's not about who rules -- but about how cooperation is established between seperate units. Maybe a kingdom is just imperialism on a small scale.

Anyway, it's way passed my bedtime. Got carried away. I hope this is semi-coherent.