Civics: need modification?

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well ToV, as you have probably seen, my civics ideas and yours actually aren't that disimilar and-if you are not averse to the idea-I may choose to 'borrow' some of your Civic Settings (your Police State, in particular, seems to be what I am after). Fear not, though, as I will give credit where credit is due .

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[ToV]

Well ToV, as you have probably seen, my civics ideas and yours actually aren't that disimilar and-if you are not averse to the idea-I may choose to 'borrow' some of your Civic Settings (your Police State, in particular, seems to be what I am after). Fear not, though, as I will give credit where credit is due .

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Thanks, Aussie_Lurker. But if you are talking about the "+2 happiness per military unit in city" I borrowed that from *I think) korn469. You would need to give credit to him, too.

EDIT: I have made MORE changes, which I have edited into the post on the last page.

 

[Holistic]

ToV, aside from realism (since I can't think of any national economy that can be categorized as "environmentalist"), the main reason why I suggested "Mixed Economy" as a replacement for Environmentalism was for the reason that the aim of the government regulation is not as defined with the term Mixed Economy (supposing that environmentalist aims are pursued under a "mixed economy"), and also to offer a middle ground between a Free Market and State Property (which I still should be renamed Planned, since that refers to how the economy is "managed" much like Free Market does, whereas State Property does not).

Since happiness in-game basically models civil obedience, and since there's no "general" unhappiness (at best only for the largest cities), I'd remove the unhappiness from Barbarism (or perhaps (over)compensate it with no upkeep). As I commented in Aussie_Lurker's thread, bonus hammers for Slavery don't go well with Pop-rushing. Then again, +1 hammers from quarries merely make them equivalent to mines, and they're quite uncommon anyway. I'd still suggest the +1 food from Serfdom at least come from other improvements than farms. Since farms can be put on most flat tiles, this could basically end up being "the" civic for fast growth (emancipation unhappiness be damned), which doesn't go together with the rural "image" of Serfdom.

As for another Legal civic, I'll suggest... Edict/Decree (since Canonical obviously wasn't what you were after), as in laws dictated by an authority (civic available with e.g. Monarchy). For effects, lowish maintenance and, say, a culture-bonus could make sense. The culture would model "cohesiveness" of the empire (or for that matter, propaganda), so "Jurisprudence" might also receive a culture-bonus.

On a completely different matter, I did some "testing" of how the <iTradeYieldModifiers> works. While it's probably a no-brainer, and probably spelled out in one XML-file or another, I didn't understand what the modifiers actually did in-game. The following might therefore be quite self-evident, and not belong in this thread (or for that matter, forum), but might conceivably be of some use to others in designing civics.

<iTradeYieldModifiers>
1) The food or hammers gained is equal to (Trade Route Value * <iYield>-modifier), rounded down. E.g. a +33% hammer yield will not give a hammer for a trade route worth 3 (+3 TR sounds better, no?), but a +34% bonus will.
2) Negative hammer- or food-yields have no effect, except to decrease positive modifiers (presumably since trade routes provide no hammers or food to begin with).
3) Bonuses are counted per trade route and are not cumulative across different trade routes. E.g. if a city with four trade routes worth "1" runs a civic that gives a bonus of +25% to hammer yield, there will not be any bonus hammers generated from trade. If a city with one trade route worth "4" running the same civic will however generate a bonus hammer.
4) For commerce, the trade route yield is equal to Trade Route Value + (Trade Route Value * <iYield>-modifier), again rounded down. E.g. with -10% penalty to commerce, a +1 TR will not generate any commerce (which makes most early-game trade routes kind of boring with any penalty to commerce and bonuses of less than +100% to food or hammers)
5) Penalties to commerce above -100 doesn't give trade routes negative yields.
6) A trade route must generate at least some commerce for there to be any hammers or food generated. I.e. a -100% penalty to commerce will never give any hammers from any trade route, even with e.g. +400% hammer yield. A -99% commerce penalty will however generate the expected 12 hammers from a +3 TR.

Given how trade routes values are calculated, any hammer- or food-bonuses will benefit big cities the most, and in particular bonus food might start a snowball, even more so if foreign trade routes are enabled.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Actually, Holistic, that info comes in VERY handy and-once again-really, really bothers me. It means that many of my attempts to balance my economic civics are completely pointless . To me, this ranks as a major BUG which needs to be rectified by Firaxis-namely allowing negative trade route yields AND cumulative trade route yields. e.g. if a city with 20 food is running a civic with -10% food per trade route, then they should have a -2 food penalty.
Man, I am really depressed by this.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Holistic]

Hm... maybe I was unclear; the food or hammers you gain from trade routes are shown in the "Trade Routes"-box on the city screen. The food or hammers actually produced by the city has no relevance to what is generated from trade routes.

By "cumulative" I meant that fractional trade route yields from different trade routes do not add up. While this is logical, it gives not-so-nice threshold effects. It'd be somewhat nicer if trade route yield modifiers are applied to the total trade generated by the city (like Great Person birthrate-modifiers are). Also, while the rounding down is logical (and found in most(?) calculations done in-game), it makes any penalty to commerce yield very noticeable in empires in the early game, where trade routes worth 1 are the most common(?). It also makes it difficult to make a civic that to some degree replaces commerce from trade routes with hammers or food at a reasonable rate in the early game.

If you meant a city with a trade route worth 20 (practically impossible), yeah, the -10% from trade routes will not give any penalty to the City's food box (well, I tested with hammers but I'd be very surprised if it works differently for food).

 

[ToV]

Holistic, thank you for all of your ideas.

I haven't made up my mind yet if I mant to scrap environmentalism. Until I decide, it stays. Just remember that everything on that list is subjuct to change. I can rename state property as "Planned", and the only reason I did not do it before now is because I was conserned more with getting the bouses right.

You have an interseting point about barbarianism. How about -1 happiness in largest x cites, and No Upkeep. Since in the begining there are few cities, it would usually translate into -1 happiness in all cities. The Slavery options was an idea from another thread. I figured since quaries and plantaions are for recources only, these bonuses would be situation and not overpowered. And for serfdom, also a good point. +1 foor from windmills might work.

A Decree civic would be perfect! Thank you. I'll be adding those in as well. Plus the culture bonus, I need one more bonus or penalty. Since it involves the leader making whatever laws he/she wants, I'm think it should be a penalty.

Thank you again.

I have edited the changes into my post into the last page.

 

[Kal-el]

While no government has embraced a Green economy, the movement is out there that is pushing for such a thing. It is conceivable, that somewhere in the future, when alternative fuels and other eco-friendly technologies make such an economy practical, that some governments will adopt an "Environmentalist" approach. Who knows?

 

[Holistic]

Oh, I did not mean that it's unrealistic for a Green economy to exist (quite the contrary, and almost any non-agricultural non-industrial economy could be called "Green" to some extent). I meant that when modding the civics for greater "realism" (which is not only wide open for interpretation, but may also not necessarily be one of ToV's goals), a "Mixed" economy makes somewhat more sense than an Green economy, since most economies today can be classified as Mixed. In-game effects would be quite similar, mostly due to the way environmental damage is modelled. The "width" of the term Mixed Economy makes it slightly useless, but also so that it liberally interpreted can be seen as encompassing a Green economy.

 

[ToV]

st noticed: according to the civopedia, Free Market IS the regulated economy Holistic is after. So Free Markets would take that spot, and Decentrialization should get bonuses and benalties that only aply in the industrial era. (The United States, Britian, and other early industrial countries, ran decentrializations in the 1800's)

 

[Holistic]

Heh, that's what I get from not reading the civilopedia (and jumping to the conclusion that Free Market basically corresponds to Laissez-Faire). Regarding civics that develop or evolve with tech level, it would indeed be really nice, ToV (and possible with python?). With "developing" civics, a democratic form of government could be made available very early, but only really "competitive" with the discovery of Democray (well, there's probably more examples). Name changes to civics when they "develop" might make it slightly less confusing.

Regarding Barbarism, it should perhaps be stressed that No Upkeep is actually a very strong bonus, more so for bigger empires where the difference in civic upkeep is larger between no and low upkeep than between low and high. Unhappiness to largest cities is not quite as strong, and a more penalizing, but perhaps fitting way to give unhappiness to Barbarism would be from troops (i.e. negative military happiness). I'm not sure how the AI would handle this, though since it'd basically be an imperative for aggression.

 

[ToV]

Heh, that's what I get from not reading the civilopedia (and jumping to the conclusion that Free Market basically corresponds to Laissez-Faire). Regarding civics that develop or evolve with tech level, it would indeed be really nice, ToV (and possible with python?). With "developing" civics, a democratic form of government could be made available very early, but only really "competitive" with the discovery of Democray (well, there's probably more examples). Name changes to civics when they "develop" might make it slightly less confusing.

Evolving civics is not exactly what I meant, but is a good idea. I was actually struggling to find a Laissez-Faire civic, and now I have found one: the sixth economic civic, Corporatism. (Now I need one more civic in the other categories)

As for Barbarism, I never knew that it would be so hard to balance out one small happiness penalty.

Oh, I have edited my list. Did you expect anything else?
EDIT (again): I have edited my list AGAIN, mostly tweaks to the legal and organization civics, and adding another civic to the organization catagory. It's just to bad I have zero modding skills, otherwise I would have a demo or something by now.

 

[ToV]

It might be easier if I post my ideas so far here.

New Civic Ideas

Government:
Despotism
Low Upkeep
-1 happiness in largest cites
+25% distance maintenance (&#8220;Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.&#8221
<Anarchy Length 2>(Who want&#8217;s to do back to despotism)

Hereditary Rule
Monarchy
Medium Upkeep
+1 happiness per military unit in city
(Another bonus or penalty)

Representation
Constitution
Low Upkeep
+3 science per specialist
+3 happiness in 6 largest cities

Police State
Fascism
High Upkeep
+50% military unit production
-50% war wariness
+2 happiness per military unit in city (Secret police keeps order)
<Anarchy Length 2>

Universal Suffrage
Democracy
Medium Upkeep
+1 hammers and commerce from towns
May spend gold to finish production
(Some sort of penalty)


Organization:
Village
Low Upkeep

City State
Polytheism
Low Upkeep
Can draft 1 unit per turn
-25% city maintenance costs (Cities take care of themselves)
-25% culture per city (To slow border growth, and so cities are more isolated)

Imperial
Monarchy
Low Upkeep
+25% commerce in capital
+2 happiness in capital
-1 happiness in largest 6 cities

Vassalage
Feudalism
High Upkeep
New units given +2 experience
Free units <+6 base, +10% pop>

Federal
Civil Service
Medium Upkeep
+2 happiness in largest cities
-25% city maintenance costs

Nationhood
Nationalism
Low Upkeep
Can draft 3 unit per turn
+2 happiness from barracks
+1 culture from specialists
-1 happiness per 25% foreign nationality (xenophobia, anyone?)


Legal:
Barbarianism
Low Upkeep
-1 happiness in largest 6 cities (&#8220;Under barbarism, the strong take what they want from the weak&#8221
<Anarchy Length 2>(How would volunteer to go back to this civic?)

Decree
Writing (Too many civics were opened by Monarchy)
Low Upkeep
+25% culture
+25% commerce in capital

Bureaucracy
Civil Service
High Upkeep (Bureaucracy becomes corrupt and inefficient over time)
+60% hammers in capital
+60% commerce in capital

Jurisprudence
(Education or Constitution)
Medium Upkeep
+25% culture
+10% science
+1 happiness from courthouses and jails

Freedom of Speech
Liberalism
No Upkeep
+100% culture
+ 50% Great People birth rate (The government does not suppress ideas)
+ 50% war wariness (There would not have been protests during the Vietnam War if the public had not seen all of those nasty war images)


Labor:
Tribalism
Low Upkeep

Slavery
Bronze Working
Low Upkeep
Can sacrifice population to rush production <2 unhappiness per pop rush>
+1 hammer for quarries (Where slaves commonly worked)
+1 commerce for plantations (Where slaves commonly worked)
<Anarchy Length 2>

Serfdom
Feudalism
Low Upkeep
Works build improvements 50% faster
+1 commerce from farms (Feudal Lords squeeze out every penny from their serfs)
-1 food from farms (food goes to the Feudal Lords first)

Caste System
Code of Law
Medium Upkeep
Unlimited artists, scientists, and merchants in cities

Emancipation
Democracy
No Upkeep
Doubles growth of Cottages, Hamlets, and Villages
Gives Civs without Emancipation unhappiness <400>
(Something else)


Economy
Decentralization
Low Upkeep

Mercantilism
Banking
High Upkeep
No foreign trade routes
-50% distance maintenance (Many European colonial empires ran mercantilism, so this seemed a better place for the bonus)
+25% commerce from markets, grocers

Lassie-Faire
Corporation
Low Upkeep
+2 trade routes
+25% production from factories (Factories are worked overtime to increase production- and profit)
-2 health (Industrialists do not care about the environment)
-10% commerce (The corporation takes more for themselves)

Regulated Market
Industrialism
Medium Upkeep
+1 trade route per city
+1 free specialist? (I am looking for something better)

State Property
Communism
Medium Upkeep
+1 Free Specialist (Investments can be directed to specific ends)
+1 Food from watermills, workshops
+34% Hammers trade yield (Production in other cities "synchronizing" with the receiving city)
-50% Commerce trade yield (Individual initiatives are not encouraged)
-2 Trade Routes (Individual initiatives are not encouraged)

Environmentalism
Ecology
High Upkeep
+6 health in all cities
+25% production from recycling plant (Nation recycles as much as possible)
+1 happiness per extra health (Citizens pride themselves in keeping the environment clean. In game terms, there is now a logical reason for all of the extra health)
+1 food from farms (Hydroponics offer larger yields)


Religion
Paganism
Low Upkeep

Organized Religion
Monotheism
High Upkeep
Can build missionaries without a monastery
Cities with State Religion construct buildings +25% faster
+1 extra happiness in cites with state religion

Theocracy
Theology
Medium Upkeep
Halts the spread of non-state religions
+2 exp in cities with state religion
+10% military production (Easier to recruit a Holy Army)
-1 happiness per non-state religion (Self-explanatory)
<Anarchy Length 2>

Pacifism
Philosophy
No Upkeep
+100% Great People points in cities with state religion
+1 gold per military unit
+100% war wariness (Self-explanatory)
Less free military units <-5 base, -25% pop>(Increased military costs have more effect)

Freedom of Religion
Liberalism
Low Upkeep
No state religion
+1 happiness for every non-state religion in a city
+25% science
-10% culture (The &#8220;Morally lax&#8221; society described in the Civilopedia)

Credit to Armandeus, Aussie Lurker, Holistic, korn469, JBG, Dubmetender, and TheJopa
for their ideas.

 

[TheJopa]

@ ToV
Why people always give despotism low upkeep and no other effects, while in reality it had a big effect. I found good way to implement despotism in my mod- 4 unhappy in 5 largest cities, +2 happy per military unit, +15% distance to palace maintenance, low upkeep. So you basicly need 2 military units in 5 largest cities just to break unhappines penalty, and this early in the game, that usualy means in all your cities. For me, it seems very realistic, since despots can rely neither on population nor on aristocracy or clery etc. However, every unit after secon rapidly adds happines in city. So 4 units give 4 happines. Maintenance penalty makes despotism corrupted and bad for big empires, so they have to change to monarchy. Monarchy gives only +1 happy per military unit, but it doesn't give unhappines, so you are not forced to garrison your cities. This is realistic because monarchs have support of aristocracy. And you could also add tribal council as starting government, which would be like despotism now, so that you are not forced to deal with 4 unhappy people so early.

Sefrdom should rather have +1 food from cottage, hamlet, village, town (or just from village and town), I think it is better bonus than food from windmills.
For mercantilism- is it possible to give +25% commerce bonus from building? Because if it is, give Central planning –50% commerce from Stock exchanges and markets, and –25% from banks. And –20% industry doesn't fit in central planing, in fact it should be +25% because they invested lots of money in heavy industry.
Is it possible to give +1 happy for extra +1 health for environmentalism? I would do some changes in python so that you get +1 food for every 3 extra health (regardless of civic) so that you basicly have 2 extra food in environmentalism.
How about creating anti-clericism civic? (Think of soviets and all communist nations) It would be no state religion, no non state religion spread, 1 unhappy per non state religion, extra research, no upkeep. In that case, Free religion should have research bonus removed and increased upkeep.

 

[Holistic]

Bonus foods from the cottage-improvements should come with a penalty to commerce, though. Otherwise Serfdom again ends up as the best "urbanization"-civic, since the cottage-line improvements become like pre-Biology farms -- only with bonus commerce.

"Lack of incentive" under a Planned economy could be modelled by penalty to the Improvement Growth Rate. However, many centrally planned economies have been accompanied by quite... forceful incentives to "work" hard. It's not really the productivity that "usually" gets hampered by central planning, but rather individual initiatives. In-game this might correspond to commerce or trade rather than hammers, and since the cottage-line provides the most commerce, this might make "sense". While this would make the cottage-line take forever to improve, the civic is available at such a late stage in the game that "dedicated" cottages should already be towns.

Corporatism is usually used to refer to the economic system of Fascist states, which might not be what you have in mind...

 

[ToV]

@ ToV
Why people always give despotism low upkeep and no other effects, while in reality it had a big effect. I found good way to implement despotism in my mod- 4 unhappy in 5 largest cities, +2 happy per military unit, +15% distance to palace maintenance, low upkeep.

The problem is that you do not have that much happiness in the beggginning, anyway, and I already hava unhappiness with Barbarianism. But the corruption, I can do.

For mercantilism- is it possible to give +25% commerce bonus from building? Because if it is, give Central planning &#8211;50% commerce from Stock exchanges and markets, and &#8211;25% from banks. And &#8211;20% industry doesn't fit in central planing, in fact it should be +25% because they invested lots of money in heavy industry.

It might be possible through python, but I reallt don't know what's possible and what's not.

"Lack of incentive" under a Planned economy could be modelled by penalty to the Improvement Growth Rate. However, many centrally planned economies have been accompanied by quite... forceful incentives to "work" hard. It's not really the productivity that "usually" gets hampered by central planning, but rather individual initiatives. In-game this might correspond to commerce or trade rather than hammers, and since the cottage-line provides the most commerce, this might make "sense". While this would make the cottage-line take forever to improve, the civic is available at such a late stage in the game that "dedicated" cottages should already be towns.

I'll get on that. Would 1 or 2 less trade routes work for you?

Corporatism is usually used to refer to the economic system of Fascist states, which might not be what you have in mind...

No, I hade 19th century America and Britan in mind, during the Industrial revolution. Also, see this topic: MEET THE CORPORATION

 

[Holistic]

While dictionary entries on the matter don't define "corporatism" solely as fascist economy, it is the "usual" interpretation and used as such in e.g. the Desert War scenario (isn't it?). I'd also refer to the wikipedia entry. It's the wiki, so it's not the ultimate truth or anything, but all I'm saying is that the choice of name is rather unfortunate. Laissez-Faire is probably a "better" term.

As for Planned economy, by the time it is available each city has two trade routes before The Corporation is discovered, four in coastal cities with the Great Lighthouse, three in all cities after The Corporation is discovered. Since the distance maintenance reduction (it's still in, isn't it?) makes the civic appealing to large empires, where even internal trade routes might be nearing +4 value, a penalty of two less trade routes would be quite severe. Not that difficult to allievate by discovering The Corporation, though. With airports, cities would have a maximum of two trade routes. If the penalty is further alleviated by e.g. giving a bonus hammer yield from trade routes, +100% hammers from trade routes (with -99% gold) might be overpowering (big cities with good foreign trade routes would be getting upwards +20 hammers from trade routes alone), but perhaps worth testing. Would make the civic very appealing for Space Races (and not entirely historically inaccurate at that).

 

[TheJopa]

[Q] The problem is that you do not have that much happiness in the beggginning, anyway, and I already hava unhappiness with Barbarianism. But the corruption, I can do. [/Q]
I don't have that problems- with 4 unhappy, and 2 happy from first military unit (you always keep at least one unit in city to protect it) they can usualy grow up to 4-5 before unrest starts showing up. And at that time you can build second and third warrior to keep order.

[Q] Bonus foods from the cottage-improvements should come with a penalty to commerce, though. Otherwise Serfdom again ends up as the best "urbanization"-civic, since the cottage-line improvements become like pre-Biology farms -- only with bonus commerce. [/Q]
Yes, penalize gold, and in heavy way. -1 for cottages and hamlets, -2 for villages and towns. So gold prod. would be 0/1/1/2, but with 1 extra food when they grow on villages.... Maybe needs some more balancing

 

[ToV]

I don't have that problems- with 4 unhappy, and 2 happy from first military unit (you always keep at least one unit in city to protect it) they can usualy grow up to 4-5 before unrest starts showing up. And at that time you can build second and third warrior to keep order

.
4 unhappiness just seems a bit harsh, and also some people (me included) use the first warrior for exploration, and some civs start with a scout instead of a warrior.

I have taken everyone's suggestions into consideration, and I have edit into my list what I have so far. I am still considering my options, however.

Since the distance maintenance reduction (it's still in, isn't it?) makes the civic appealing to large empires, where even internal trade routes might be nearing +4 value, a penalty of two less trade routes would be quite severe.

I have taken out that bonus. Everything you see on the list is what I propose, and if there is something missing from the orriginal version, it is because I took it out.

If the penalty is further alleviated by e.g. giving a bonus hammer yield from trade routes, +100% hammers from trade routes (with -99% gold) might be overpowering

I have not suggested this at all.

You do make a good point about the trade routes. Maybe I should increase the penalty to -3 or -4. Also, I will rename Corporatism as Laissez-Faire. I want to move the tech requierment to corporation, but to do that, I need to move Regulated Economy. Does anyone have any suggestions? Speaking about the Regulated Economy, I think I need a different bonus for it than the "One Free Specialist". Any suggestions?

 

[Dubmetender]

High every ones
I just made 5 new civics this week, and after testing, i think it's equilibrated and playeable:
communism : Upkeep : high
+15% prod military units
- 25 % unhappyness during war
+ 3 xp for military unit
required : communism

Law State : upkeep medium
+2 happy with courthouse
+ 10 % science
required : Education

Syndicate : upkeep high
+20 % prod
+2 happy with factory
+40% unhappyness during war
required : industrialization

Usure : upkeep : medium
+20 % gold
-2 happyness in 6 great cities
required : banking

Monastic study upkeep : high
+ 100 % great person in city with official religion
+10 % science
required : clerge (don't know english term : the tech with organized religion)

just suggestion, but it's playeable...
Sorry for my poor english

 

[ToV]

communism : Upkeep : high
+15% prod military units
- 25 % unhappyness during war
+ 3 xp for military unit
required : communism

Although it may seem like it, Communism is not primarilly a war civic. This could be useful for the police stave civic.

Monastic study upkeep : high
+ 100 % great person in city with official religion
+10 % science
required : clerge

(The English term is Priest, but the tech you're looking for it monothesism.)

Syndicate : upkeep high
+20 % prod
+2 happy with factory
+40% unhappyness during war
required : industrialization

Sounds like my corporatism, but I do not think it needs a igh upkeep, because the GOVERNMENT does not do much to interfere. I do not know about the war wariness. If anything, corpotations actually support war, because it can be a very profitable time for them.

Law State : upkeep medium
+2 happy with courthouse
+ 10 % science
required : Education

This might be a good legal civic. Both myself and Aussie Lurker have a civic like this, called Jurisprudence. Law State is just as good a term.


Holistic, I have been thinking very hard, and I have decided to stick with corporatism, the civic where the corporation is in charge ofthe government. Please reade the article I linked to (MEET THE CORPORATION) for more information.