Civics: need modification?

[Thasis]

What I believe is the whole game needs a redux (which I'm slowly going to do *shakes fist*). We need TONS of civics, TONS of techs, TONS of buildings, TONS of everything. And the game needs to be longer *shakes fist*. I prefer my single game going on for a week instead of a couple hours. Makes it seem more like running a civilization then playing a quick god-game.

 

[Dryhad]

If you want to include Atheist State, I think I've worked out the kinks:

Requires: Scientific Method
High Upkeep
No State
+2 per non-state
+80%

 

[Buckets]

1. Unlimited Priests make more sence under organized religion OR theocracy.
2. Emancipation should not be high, because what is the government paying for? Nothing! There is nothing to pay upkeep for! (Realistically, not in game terms)
3. Globalization would fit better under another tech, such as industrialism, or corporation.

1 - Agree... but... it makes at least a little sense, no?
2 - Disagree! Sure, workers are free, in the private sector, but when you (the Gov) want something done you've gotta pay for it. Especially white house toilet seats can really hurt the coffers.
3 - I understand your point but i disagree, and here's why: Oil powered ships are what make Globalization possible. Even today we get the bulk of our international trade by sea. Industrialism fits ok, but it's closely linked to assembly line, which improves hammer output anyway. By putting it in combustion, i feel that it spreads the pieces of the puzzle around a bit better, if you get my drift. Also, Globalization might be renamed 'foreign investment and development', which is way too long and cumbersome, but it might apply to a technologically backward nation, as well as the captains of science and industry.

 

[ToV]

Disagree! Sure, workers are free, in the private sector, but when you (the Gov) want something done you've gotta pay for it. Especially white house toilet seats can really hurt the coffers.

Still, High seems too much. I suggest you reduce it to medium, increase the Civic Percent Anger to 500 or 600, and add some really small bonus, like +2 happy from <insert appropriate building here>, or something like that.

 

[roidesfoux]

One modification I have made in my game is that Free Religion allows you to build missionaries without monastaries. This makes sense in that it is easier to spread religions when there is religious freedom, and in terms of gameplay allows you to spread religions you get after Scientific Method.

-RdF

 

[ToV]

One modification I have made in my game is that Free Religion allows you to build missionaries without monastaries. This makes sense in that it is easier to spread religions when there is religious freedom, and in terms of gameplay allows you to spread religions you get after Scientific Method.

-RdF

1) If you build monasteries, you STILL can build missionaries in the late game.
2) If you did not build monasteries, whose fault is that? (Hint: t's not the game's fault!)
3) It already exists under organized religion!

 

[roidesfoux]

1) If you build monasteries, you STILL can build missionaries in the late game.
2) If you did not build monasteries, whose fault is that? (Hint: t's not the game's fault!)
3) It already exists under free religion!

1)True. However, I said "religions you get after Scientific Method". If Taoism spreads to your civilization after you discover Scientific Method, you have no opportunity to build Taoist monastaries.
2)Since it's impossible for you to build monastaries for religions you don't have, it is the game's fault.
3)Are you talking about vanilla civ or your mod? Free Religion doesn't have this bonus in the vanilla game, and it's not included in your latest list (post #265).

-RdF

 

[ToV]

3)Are you talking about vanilla civ or your mod? Free Religion doesn't have this bonus in the vanilla game, and it's not included in your latest list (post #265).

I'm sorry! I meant Organized religion! That was just a typo!

 

[ToV]

Please delete

 

[ToV]

I have decided to mad myself. I started with just changing the original civics without adding more. Here is a list. I am looking for ideas for balance, as well as anyone with python skills.

New Civic Ideas, 2nd Version

Government:
Despotism
Low Upkeep
+10% distance maintenance* (Despots are corrupt)

Hereditary Rule
Monarchy
Low Upkeep
+1 happiness per military unit

Representation
Constitution
Medium Upkeep
+2 happiness in largest cities
+3 science per specialist

Police State
Fascism
High Upkeep
+25% military production
-50% war wariness
+2 happiness per military unit* (The military keeps order, which is what CIV happiness represents)
-50% great people points* (A police state is a repressive regime. It is also to counter the free speech civic)

Universal Suffrage
Democracy
Medium Upkeep
+1 hammer and commerce from town*
+100% growth for cottage, hamlet, village*

Legal:
Barbarianism
Low Upkeep

Vassalage
Feudalism
High Upkeep
Free units <+5 base, +10% pop>
+2 experience to new units

Bureaucracy
Civil Service
Medium Upkeep
+50% hammers and commerce in capital

Nationhood
Nationalism
None
Can draft 3 unit per turn
+2 happiness from barracks
+1 unhappiness per foreign nationality* (Xenophobia)

Free Speech
Liberalism
Low Upkeep
+100% culture in all cities
+50% great people points* (The government does not suppress ideas)
+50% war wariness*

Labor:
Tribalism
Low Upkeep
+10% city maintenance* (Tribalism is not effective in large cities)
-1 Happiness in largest cities* (&#8220;We Long to Return to the Open Country")

Slavery
Bronze Working
Low
Can sacrifice population to rush production

Serfdom
Feudalism
Low Upkeep
Works build improvements 50% faster
+1 commerce from watermill, windmill* (You&#8217;re serfs must pay fees to uses these services. And for a host of other things, too)
-50% growth for cottage, hamlet, village* (Urbanization is not encouraged, since most of the population is needed to works the field)

Caste System
Code of Law
Medium Upkeep
Unlimited artists, scientists, and merchants in cities

Emancipation
Democracy
Low Upkeep
Can spend gold to finish production*
+1 happiness in largest cities*
Gives Civs without Emancipation unhappiness <400>

Economy:
Decentralization
Low Upkeep
-10% income
+20% production with factories* <additive>
-4 health with factories

Mercantilism
Banking
Medium Upkeep
No distance maintenance* (This bonus seemed better here, since most European colonial empires ran this civic)
+1 gold per specialist*
No foreign trade routes

Free Market
Economics
Medium Upkeep
+2 trade route per city
+10% factory production <additive>

State Property
Communism
Low Upkeep
1free specialist*
+1 food from workshop, watermill
-1 trade route* (Individual incentives are not encouraged, because everything belongs to the state, anyway)

Environmentalism
Medicine
Medium Upkeep
+6 health in all cities
+1 happiness from jungle, forest
+1 food from farms* (Hydroponics offer higher yields; in addition, now you need less farms, leaving room for other, more useful improvements)
+15% production from recycling center* (As much as possible is recycled)

Religion:
Paganism
Low Upkeep

Organized Religion
Monotheism
High Upkeep
Can build missionaries without a monastery
+25% building construction with state religion
+1 extra happiness from state religion*

Theocracy
Theology
Medium Upkeep
+2 exp in cities with state religion
Halts the spread of non-state religions
+10% military production* (It is easier to recruit a Holy Army)

Pacifism
Philosophy
None
+100% Great People points in cities with state religion
+1 gold per military unit
+50% War Wariness* (You&#8217;re citizens are pacifists! What did you expect?)

Freedom of Religion
Liberalism
Low Upkeep
No state religion
+1 happiness for every non-state religion in a city
+10% science* (Religion does not censor ideas. It is increased to counter the new culture penalty)

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Hiya ToV. First of all I really like a LOT of the ideas you put forward. For instance your thing with Serfdom slowing the growth of Villages etc is fantastic, same with Freedom of Speech and Nationhood.
Just a few questions though. How would you implement the -1 Happy per Foreign Population? I wanted to do this myself but can see no way to achieve it!
Also, it would be worth checking to see whether distance maintainance and # of city Maintainance modifiers now work under 1.61, or else we are still left with any percentage modifier giving us no cost at all.

Anyway, though, it looks great and-I confess-you have given me a few ideas for my own mod. Keep up the great work .

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Dryhad]

A few points:

Police State
+2 happiness per military unit* (The military keeps order, which is what CIV happiness represents)

I figured that was what the war weariness modifier represented. Police State is strictly business: You do what the military tells you. On the other hand, Hereditary Rule makes a big spectacle of the military increasing happiness (Hence "the military presence impresses us").

Nationhood
+1 unhappiness per foreign nationality* (Xenophobia)

How do I do this? That's a really cool effect.

Pacifism
+100% War Wariness* (You’re citizens are pacifists! What did you expect?)

May I suggest, in this case, you get rid of the gold cost per military unit?

 

[Holistic]

I don't think both gold cost and WW is overkill for Pacifism. Defensive warfare doesn't cause much WW (if any), and troops within your borders cost less money anyway; the only time when the "double-penalty" would hurt is when fighting offensively -- which it should for a Pacifism-civic.

The unhappiness-for-foreigners sounds something quite doable with python alone (don't ask me how, though).

Regarding Environmentalism, the only real disadvantage now is its late arrival (save a beeline for Medicine) -- which perhaps is just how it's supposed to be (though it seems ridiculously good for a late-game GP-push (Golden Age spaceship construction?)).

 

[ToV]

I figured that was what the war weariness modifier represented. Police State is strictly business: You do what the military tells you. On the other hand, Hereditary Rule makes a big spectacle of the military increasing happiness (Hence "the military presence impresses us").

Civ happiness is not military hapiness, but "law and order." Acording to the Civopedia, one of the advantage is the ability to get the public to do what is needed, no matter what. If the public revolts (exceeds the happiness limit), the military is called in to quell the public (+2 happiness per military unit)

How do I do this? That's a really cool effect.

I figue it could be done with python, like Holistic said. I started a topic requesting python programing, seeing as I never used python before, and have no idea what I am doing. If you know anyone that can help, please let me know.

Here is the link to my reqest topic: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=167110

 

[Dryhad]

Civ happiness is not military hapiness, but "law and order." Acording to the Civopedia, one of the advantage is the ability to get the public to do what is needed, no matter what. If the public revolts (exceeds the happiness limit), the military is called in to quell the public (+2 happiness per military unit)

I didn't say it was military hapiness, but I don't think it's purely law and order either. It's civilian happiness. Hereditary rule parades it's military around its kingdom, making it something of a performance rather than a defence force. The police state, on the other hand, arrests people who show dissent against the government. This is represented by the reduction in war weariness. It's not that people are happier, it's that they're afraid to be unhappy.

Also, from a gameplay perspective it makes more of a divide between Police State and Hereditary Rule.

 

[ToV]

This is represented by the reduction in war weariness. It's not that people are happier, it's that they're afraid to be unhappy.

The war wariness is not enough to represent this, because the police state can quell protests just as easily in peace as in war.

 

[Dryhad]

The war wariness is not enough to represent this, because the police state can quell protests just as easily in peace as in war.

I still think it is better to represent this by a reduction in unhappiness rather than an increase in happiness.

 

[dh_epic]

I don't think Pacifism means "we hate violence", but more the idea of religious tolerance and charity. There are very few actual instances of actually pacifist "we will abstain from all war" kinds of states. "Pacifism" is just supposed to be in contrast to Organizated Religion and Theocracy. Perhaps the best description is "Charity" or "Good Will" -- emphasizing the aspects of religion that encourage harmony among people.

 

[ToV]

I still think it is better to represent this by a reduction in unhappiness rather than an increase in happiness.

That might be more realistic, but it would also be much harder to implement. Please remember that I am limited to XML editing, and what you ask for is well beyond what I am capable of.

 

[ToV]

for police state add +2 happiness to all cities but also have a -50% culture because people are afraid to protest but they are also afraid to express themselves.

I actually have something for this, the reduction of Great People Points. I will consider it, though. I do not know if it is balanced. I would have to do testing.