Civics Tree

[CliffCo]

While certain unique civics can be beneficial, do you find it beneficial to ignore most of the unique civics and concentrate on the standard tree early on in each era? I'm trying to form a better strategy for wonder building as most wonders get built by the AI prior to me reaching them in the tree.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

While certain unique civics can be benefial, do you find it beneficial to ignore most of the unique civics and concentrate on the standard tree early on in each era? I'm trying to form a better strategy for wonder building as most wonders get built by the AI prior to me reaching them in the tree.

The Civics Tree, in my experience, is set up to force you into a set of decisions. On the one hand, the regular Civics get you to Wonders. On the other hand, the Civ-specific Civics get you the Unique structures and Quarters that are frequently the source of major bonuses in Culture, Production, Gold, etc.

And, of course, you can't have both, especially in the Antiquity Age when the competition for Wonders is simply murderous. But if you concentrate on trying to run the regular Civics Tree to get Wonders, you will fall short (especially in the higher levels of difficulty when facing the AI's 'built-in' bonuses) because you cannot begin to keep up with the AI Civs without your unique Quarters, structures, improvements, et al from the specific Civics.

Finally, of course, the Cultural Legacy/Wonders path is designed to be a source of frustration because there are (at the moment) only 21 Wonders available in the Antiquity Age. That means it is absolutely impossible for more than 3 Civs to complete the Legacy path. Playing on a Standard or larger map with 7+ opponents means you have, all else being equal, a less than 50% chance of doing it.

 

[CliffCo]

The Civics Tree, in my experience, is set up to force you into a set of decisions. On the one hand, the regular Civics get you to Wonders. On the other hand, the Civ-specific Civics get you the Unique structures and Quarters that are frequently the source of major bonuses in Culture, Production, Gold, etc.

And, of course, you can't have both, especially in the Antiquity Age when the competition for Wonders is simply murderous. But if you concentrate on trying to run the regular Civics Tree to get Wonders, you will fall short (especially in the higher levels of difficulty when facing the AI's 'built-in' bonuses) because you cannot begin to keep up with the AI Civs without your unique Quarters, structures, improvements, et al from the specific Civics.

Finally, of course, the Cultural Legacy/Wonders path is designed to be a source of frustraion because there are (at the moment) only 21 Wonders available in the Antiquity Age. That means it is absolutely impossible for more than 3 Civs to complete the Legacy path. Playing on a Standard or larger map with 7+ opponents means you have, all else being equal, a less than 50% chance of doing it.

To me the Cultural path seems that hardest, i've just moved up to Immortal playing on a large map with long ages and 5 random AI, I can win on the Economic and Scientific paths but there's always at least one AI that is way ahead of me in culture. I haven't seen an AI get close to a cultural victory yet as there's never enough relics etc to go around.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

To me the Cultural path seems that hardest, i've just moved up to Immortal playing on a large map with long ages and 5 random AI, I can win on the Economic and Scientific paths but there's always at least one AI that is way ahead of me in culture. I haven't seen an AI get close to a cultural victory yet as there's never enough relics etc to go around.

Having multiple winners/completion of the given Legacy/Victory path be absolutely impossible due to lack of relics/Wonders is a great game effect, but also a totally frustrating one because it warps everything else you do. If you are going to seriously compete for Wonders in Antiquity, you have to concentrate on getting Culture to get the opening Civics for Wonders and then start building Wonders as soon as you have the production. I have seen AI Civs finish their first Wonder before I had my third settlement down, so you have no time to waste on any distractions like Science, Trade, War or invading hostile IPs.

This may have been the objective of the game design all along, but given that the four Legacy paths in each Age are almost completely separate in too many cases it means that getting all the paths complete is like herding cats - you have to concentrate on everything, and all at once, to complete some paths (like Antiquity Wonders or Modern Artifacts) in direct competition with the AI Civs. The only saving grace is that some paths have virtually no competition (Exploration Relics, Antiquity Codexes) so they require no attention at all once you understand the basic steps to complete them before the end of the Age.

All of which combines, though, to make pursuing the Legacy Paths far too predictable: I Know that in every single game I have to concentrate on Wonders to get enough of them, and on getting Mathematics Tech to build Academies to have enough places to put my Codexes (unless I am sure of getting Nalanda, which I never am because the AI ALWAYS beelines it) , and take (usually) about 4 enemy settlements to complete the Military Antiquity Legacy, and so, frankly, all too often the Antiquity Age becomes a rote exercise: too many paths require me to follow the same footsteps down the path every single game.

Which is why I really, really, really want them to be working on multiple Legacy Paths in at least the Antiquity and Exploration Ages - which the tweaks to the Exploration Treasure/Economic Paths hint at already - or the game is going to become too boring to play very quickly.

 

[Navelgazer]

So, in my experience, Seven Wonders is easily the most difficult legacy path to complete in any age. Others here have explained why (mostly that there are too few wonders to complete it with any sort of competition, even on a 6-player map at Sovereign difficulty, and because the AI does go after wonders quite a bit.) It's possible, but you need all the help you can get (which is part of why I like Hatshepsut and Egypt a lot more than others seem to - that combo can pull this off, at least some of the time.)

As for myself, I usually go Chiefdom -> Mysticism -> Discipline -> Code of Laws -> UNIQUE CIVIC -> Discipline II -> Back to Unique Civics Tree. This is because my general start build order has a couple of scouts, a warrior or slinger, a brickyard or saw pit, then I've reached pop 5 in my capital and can pop out two settlers, then depending on where I am in the tech tree I can either get started on my first library or else pop out an altar while I wait for Writing to complete. Once my library is done, I immediately go for Great Stele, which I can get most of the time, and then from there into Gate of All Nations. If my production is out-speeding my culture, I'll prioritize Discipline II to make sure Gate of All Nations is ready to start as soon as Great Stele is done. Because the AI doesn't seem to prioritize masteries so much, GoaN is almost always securable (and it's one of the best ones to get in any case.)

After that, it largely depends on terrain and what your strategy is. Terracotta Army is usually attainable, as are Emile Bell, Colosseum, and Oracle. Mausoleum of Theodoric always goes real quick in my experience, and Colossus is tricky, at least on the maps I usually play. Nalanda can be tricky placement-wise and the AI loves it, so I rarely manage that one. Mundo Perdido is great if you can get it (which is possible if you've got the terrain for it, since it comes off Mysticism II - another early mastery.)

But the Unique Civics are very, very important, as they're where most of your civ's bonuses actually live. Maya, for instance, is almost universally considered the best Antiquity civ if not the best in any age, but without their civics tree, they're just their two UUs and 1-3 extra science per turn. Complete the unique civics tree for sure.

 

[Leucarum]

I think maybe the legacy paths need to be dynamic to keep them fresh. Have objectives for the player be generated semi-randomly; weighted towards some options based on things like your civ/leader choices, things you've built/done thus far, etc (e.g. Hatshepshut gets more."Build a wonder" culture objectives)... Maybe take as inspiration the way way Stellaris does its tech tree generation. When a player does an objective, give them a new one.

At least that's the best idea I've had to keep things fresh.

When it comes to civics, I don't know how I feel. Getting your unique stuff is the colest thing in playing a civ, so gating it behind civics that you might be disincentivized to grab wasn't the best design choice I feel

 

[tedhebert]

I've noticed that they had tightened up the artifact race in modern in recent patches, to a point where it had almost become impossible to win culture victory.

But the latest patch introduced Large and Huge maps, and suddenly the culture victory has become easier again, even on immortal. Why ? The large maps introduce more continents, and the artifacts are
spread at 2 per continent for explo artifacts and then 4 per continent for all ages, so now we've come back to a much larger number of artifacts available... Yes there are also more civs playing, but it doesn't seem to make a difference.

It's not overly easy, you do have to put a lot of energy into it, but it's back to doable at least...

 

[stealth_nsk]

I've noticed that they had tightened up the artifact race in modern in recent patches, to a point where it had almost become impossible to win culture victory.

I wouldn't say so. In my latest game on Immortal, I gathered enough artefacts and my cultural victory was only around 10 turns behind economic one.

 

[UWHabs]

So, in my experience, Seven Wonders is easily the most difficult legacy path to complete in any age. Others here have explained why (mostly that there are too few wonders to complete it with any sort of competition, even on a 6-player map at Sovereign difficulty, and because the AI does go after wonders quite a bit.) It's possible, but you need all the help you can get (which is part of why I like Hatshepsut and Egypt a lot more than others seem to - that combo can pull this off, at least some of the time.)

As for myself, I usually go Chiefdom -> Mysticism -> Discipline -> Code of Laws -> UNIQUE CIVIC -> Discipline II -> Back to Unique Civics Tree. This is because my general start build order has a couple of scouts, a warrior or slinger, a brickyard or saw pit, then I've reached pop 5 in my capital and can pop out two settlers, then depending on where I am in the tech tree I can either get started on my first library or else pop out an altar while I wait for Writing to complete. Once my library is done, I immediately go for Great Stele, which I can get most of the time, and then from there into Gate of All Nations. If my production is out-speeding my culture, I'll prioritize Discipline II to make sure Gate of All Nations is ready to start as soon as Great Stele is done. Because the AI doesn't seem to prioritize masteries so much, GoaN is almost always securable (and it's one of the best ones to get in any case.)

After that, it largely depends on terrain and what your strategy is. Terracotta Army is usually attainable, as are Emile Bell, Colosseum, and Oracle. Mausoleum of Theodoric always goes real quick in my experience, and Colossus is tricky, at least on the maps I usually play. Nalanda can be tricky placement-wise and the AI loves it, so I rarely manage that one. Mundo Perdido is great if you can get it (which is possible if you've got the terrain for it, since it comes off Mysticism II - another early mastery.)

But the Unique Civics are very, very important, as they're where most of your civ's bonuses actually live. Maya, for instance, is almost universally considered the best Antiquity civ if not the best in any age, but without their civics tree, they're just their two UUs and 1-3 extra science per turn. Complete the unique civics tree for sure.

Even if I don't have many wonder-spam opponents, I find I'd run out of time most games before actually completing enough wonders for the path.

But in general, I follow a similar path - you get the first few general civics out of the way first, and then you spend some time down your unique tree. It always varies a little bit, depending on each civ's tree, but I find in most cases I'm busy enough that my unique civic tree isn't crucial to rush before commander/pantheon/merchants.

Exploration I do like to get the first religious civic at some point relatively early in the era, since getting that extra bonus can be big. And sometimes there you have a little more flexibility depending on what your culture output going into the era is. In antiquity, the "wrong" civic can be like a 12 turn detour. And in a lot of cases, you just might not have the production to build your UB yet anyways, so it doesn't hurt to delay them.

But if you're playing as Maya, for example, then frankly I might even go down and get their building unlocked before I even go for my pantheon.

Once you get the important early parts unlocked, then it's just a question of what bonuses each civ has. Sometimes they're so weak on the civics tree that I'd rather the traditional civics and those policy cards. Sometimes you get some really strong T2 or T3 civics on the civ itself, and so you want to go down and complete them. More often than not, I like to get through the main civics for my civ, since everyone gets something when they complete their tree, as well. So it might feel weak, but then you get a free attribute point, for example, and that can be a big boost.

 

[vorlon_mi]

While certain unique civics can be beneficial, do you find it beneficial to ignore most of the unique civics and concentrate on the standard tree early on in each era? I'm trying to form a better strategy for wonder building as most wonders get built by the AI prior to me reaching them in the tree.

For me, it depends on whether my Antiquity civ has a unique quarter. If it does, then I will switch to the unique civics sooner, to be sure that I build it.
If it does not, I may pick up some masteries on the normal tree first.

In Antiquity, the early game has relatively few social policies to choose from. Sometimes the policiies offered on the unique tree are better than the standard ones. In later ages, I have traditions from the first few ages to choose from, so I enter the unique civics tree later.

I rarely complete the 7 Wonders, even on Sovereign or Viceroy difficulty. I like to get Gate of All Nations, but I usually have other priorities for my production, e.g. another Army commander.

 

[Leucarum]

There are enough wonders with awkward building requirements that I can usually get the 2nd step on the culture path even if I don't push it hard. I do try and get Gate of All Nations though. Such a game-changing wonder!

Beyond that, I usually find it's possible to build some combination of Emilie Bell/Oracle/Pyramids/Mundo Perdido due to them having placement restrictions, and the AI never seems to push the Coloseum in my experience...

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

There are enough wonders with awkward building requirements that I can usually get the 2nd step on the culture path even if I don't push it hard. I do try and get Gate of All Nations though. Such a game-changing wonder!

Beyond that, I usually find it's possible to build some combination of Emilie Bell/Oracle/Pyramids/Mundo Perdido due to them having placement restrictions, and the AI never seems to push the Coloseum in my experience...

Only from my own experience, but in reference to the AI and Wonders:

The AI absolutely prioritizes:

Hanging Gardens
Pyramids
Petra
Nalanda
Mausoleum of Theodosius
Colossus

The only thing that slows any of them down is terrain requirements for Wonders like Pyramids and Petra. Otherwise, competing for any of these I have found to be a waste of time unless I am ahead in Culture AND beeline to the required Civic AND have a city full of Production waiting to start building. And even then the dreaded red truncated pyramid shows up more often than not.

On the other hand, again in my experience, the AI generally makes no major bid for:

Gate of All Nations
Mundo Perdido
Emilie Bell
Colosseum

In fact, if I have a Tropical start, Mundo Perdido is the one Wonder I can generally count on getting in every game. This may simply reflect the fact that Tropical versus Desert or Tundra starts seem to be rather rare: I believe only the Mayans and Trung Trac have Tropical biases, but again, that may just be my rather limited experience playing them.

- And I have miserably memorable experience with the fact that an AI Civ can build two or more Wonders at once. Amina playing Egypt once completed 3 Wonders in 5 turns, beating me out for each of them in turn and wrecking my bid for a complete Culture Legacy Path at the end of the Age.

 

[Leucarum]

Only from my own experience, but in reference to the AI and Wonders:

The AI absolutely prioritizes:

Hanging Gardens
Pyramids
Petra
Nalanda
Mausoleum of Theodosius
Colossus

The only thing that slows any of them down is terrain requirements for Wonders like Pyramids and Petra. Otherwise, competing for any of these I have found to be a waste of time unless I am ahead in Culture AND beeline to the required Civic AND have a city full of Production waiting to start building. And even then the dreaded red truncated pyramid shows up more often than not.

On the other hand, again in my experience, the AI generally makes no major bid for:

Gate of All Nations
Mundo Perdido
Emilie Bell
Colosseum

In fact, if I have a Tropical start, Mundo Perdido is the one Wonder I can generally count on getting in every game. This may simply reflect the fact that Tropical versus Desert or Tundra starts seem to be rather rare: I believe only the Mayans and Trung Trac have Tropical biases, but again, that may just be my rather limited experience playing them.

- And I have miserably memorable experience with the fact that an AI Civ can build two or more Wonders at once. Amina playing Egypt once completed 3 Wonders in 5 turns, beating me out for each of them in turn and wrecking my bid for a complete Culture Legacy Path at the end of the Age.

Yeah, Pyramids is the least reliably available of the ones I listed. Still that usually leaves 4 even if you dom't push for them. I'm not a fan of the cultural golden age anyway so for that (and millitary) I'm usually happy not to push for a golden age. Economic and Scientific are more valuable and don't scale badly with player counts...