Civics: Who cares about the Pyramids?

[Buckeye Kid]

Hello, avid Civ player here. I have noticed the 'norm' for a good early wonder seems to be the Pyramids. I ask why? I assume people are playing a different game than me but here is my normal tech/religon/civic route. Note I normally play standard map size, pangea, prince normal.

First off is mysticism then polytheism (hopefully found hinduism) then masonry then monotheism (almost always found judiasm). I have not founded any citied so now my capital city is the holy city of 1 usually 2 religons.

Next I do maybe a few worker techs (agri+animal hus usually) or maybe mining and fishing depending on the terrain. Then its wheel and BW, then pottery, sailing, writing, IW.

These above I consider the ancient techs. These are the base techs that allow you to do everything in the game. As far as civics go I usually only switch to Organized Religon for free missionaries and +25% production. Slavery only if I have a high food city I can whip (this is rare).

From here I go to monarchy and fedualism. My playstyle is warmonger, so I kinda beeline feudalism for its +2 vassalism and +50% worker serfdom. This means CR2 axes, or med1 scouts. From here I go to math + construction to get cats. I load up my cats with CR1 (or is it combat 1?) + the +10% bombard promo. Now its clobberin' time!

At this point, I am running heridatery (sp) rule (defensive units in my cities to defend + make happy) + vassalism + feudalism + decentralism + organized religon. AT NO TIME have I ever considered running representation. It apperars worthless! A few extra beakers and happiness? Bah! I run my medieval govt until I can get enough happiness bonuses to leave heridetary rule and switch to whatever is the last on the list (democracy? its the +1 prod from town + buy stuff with gold civic). Then I also go to free speech, free religon, free market, and emancipation. This doesn't happen until very late (post scientific method).

I punish AI civs using this method. The only thing I have ever considered is beelining macemen and then engineering for upgraded medieval fighting, but once the war machine gets up and running, there is nothing that can stand in the way of 20 - 30 CR3 axes/swords + med1 scouts + +10% bombard cats, so who cares? I usually can't produce enough archers/longbowmen to keep up and defend all the cities I take!

I guess I think representation is totally useless. I assume I may run representation if I had a very small city count (like 4-5) and all my cities were floodplain cities (extra food) AND I could run caste system for unlimited specialists.

Anyone else do what I do? I always assumed I was doing what everyone else did!

 

[Defiant47]

When running a specialist economy, representation can be pretty significant. It all depends on your playing style.

 

[CliftonBazaar]

If you run specialists then Representation is a must; if you run a war campaign then you really do need Police State.
Both of these civics are available early if you have the Pyramids.

At high level games it is one of only 4 Wonders I try to get.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I assume people are playing a different game than me... As far as civics go I usually only switch to Organized Religon for free missionaries and +25% production. Slavery only if I have a high food city I can whip (this is rare).

You switch to Slavery only rarely? "people are playing a different game than me" may run away with the Understatement of the Year award.


One common way of using the Pyramids is to combine it with the Great Library. The Big Stone Trophy gives you early access to Representation, and it starts the counter for producing a Great Engineer. The GE gives you the opportunity to rush the Library - and Representation doubles the research yield of the scientists. Furthermore, the Engineer can rush the Great Library anywhere you want - including that city with the extreme food surplus that is scrambling to build the National Epic, so you get a whopping boost to your counters for Great Scientists. And if you choose to attach those Great Scientists to any of your cities - they get a boost from representation as well.


This is not necessarily an approach suitable for someone who thinks the best part of the game is to stomp on the AI with medieval units, but there are alternative approaches.

If you wanted to compare your style to that of other players, you might look around at some of the games posted here, paying particular attention to when they achieve particular results.

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

guess I think representation is totally useless

Wow my head is spinning. I think its one of the very best civics.

1. You dont have to keep troops in your cities for happiness. Often I have cities that are never threatened...there is no point keeping three extra troops in there for happiness when I can get the same effect and use them for warring. Plus the longer you rely on soldiers for happiness the more money youre going to spend in maintainence.

Think of it this way, the +3 happiness in your top six cities from Representation means you have an extra 18 soldiers to fight with! Thats an extra army for free.

2. Its one of the best (if not the best) techs to boost your research. And you dont need caste system to take advantage of it. Simply running one or two specialists in all your cities will give you a significant boost.

3. It also gets research out of any specialist that joins your city.

4. You can run the specialist economy (se). Build lots of farms, run lots of specialists, bring your slider near 0%. Some people argue that this is the best form of economy. You get flexibility of whipping (slavery) units or improvements, drafting units, lots of great people which work with other civics (specifically, pacifism).

Its interesting you said you might run it when you have a small civ...that seems to be not the best time to do so. You wont have a lot of specialists and Im guessing you wont have a lot of super specialists joined in your cities. I also see that you dont mention running civil service, another civic that is a great research booster.

You have a playstyle that works for you, but not everyone is a warmonger. The other thing is that while you can still get away with some of these things on Prince, I feel like the higher difficulties require more specialization and focusing on research. Thats where representation and civil service really shine.

Try playing a game running some specialists and representation. You dont need to run caste system...grocer+market+forge+library+1 temple alone gives you eight specialists. You'll get better research and more great people. Then you can fight those medieval wars with cavalry and riflemen while they are stuck on macemen.

 

[sooooo]

Well it also depends on your map type too. If you play on highlands or cold climate, then representaion and slavery get used less than HR and serfdom. If you're on archipelago or a temperate pangaea, then representation is pretty good.

 

[drkodos]

Me likey three dimensional triangles.

 

[Buckeye Kid]

Well it also depends on your map type too. If you play on highlands or cold climate, then representaion and slavery get used less than HR and serfdom. If you're on archipelago or a temperate pangaea, then representation is pretty good.

My maps seem to have an awful lot of 'barren' area where there isn't enough food to really run a specialist economy. The amount of desert and plains tiles my maps generate vs. grassland tiles always makes my head spin. So usually my cities are strong in production and weak in spare food.

Also, I notice on higher levels war is a necessity. It's a 'kill or be killed' sort of thing.

Specialist economy is great, but having a massive sprawling empire (including the coin from conquering cities that allows you to run negative income) always seems to be the best way to take care of business. I also understand everyone has different playstyles (which is a great thing about CIV) and the type of map is critical. I guess I don't see why micromanaging cities to death is better than taking 5-10 axes/macemen + 2 medscouts + 5 cats and solving the problem the 'old fashioned' way.

FYI: I am a 'builder' CIV player, btw. I have just been forced to warmonger due to increased difficulty, lack of habitable land, and the fact if I don't go get 'them' they will eventually come and get me!

 

[gettingfat]

OMG... Pyramid is useless!!!!

Can I just pay the AI 100 golds to get this useless big 3-D triangle? That should be a rip off on me.

 

[Kushluk]

Wow.

1) Slavery is the best civic. I love conquering a city only to whip it into a courthouse when it stops protesting.

2) The 'Rids are amazing becuase they allow you to play dirty little tricks with Representation and Scientists if your a nerd, or allow you to smash in the faces of other players with the genltle Police State civic long before you get to Facisim.

 

[kuldiin]

I normally get great wall, then from the Engineer I rush the Pyramids.

The General bonus and Police state works well

 

[thenooblet22]

'State Police' makes my Praetorians smile...

 

[TyranusBonehead]

I usually try for Pyramids after the Great Wall. I like having all the civics available early.

My only question is, if I'm going for a space ship victory, do you think Universal Sufferage is a good civic or is representation better?

And by the way, Slavery is good to have available when you need to rush. I almost always switch to it, but only use it when I really need it.

 

[Blueberry]

I think The Pyramids is very good to have and representation is powerful.
But, is it worth building without stone? Even with stone it is time consuming.
And, I allways bulid the Oracle first. To build both is hard, and what if someone beats you to it just the round before? You will have lost a huge amount precious time so early in the game. So, I solve the dilemma by building two settlers instead. If you want an early war and/or build up a superscience city as fast as possible you will need those early founded cities more. Of course, the three extra beakers per specialist lost for not having representation is sad. With the Great Library you could have four scientist in all in that city pretty early. Plus maybe a priest and an engineer in other cities, you miss 18 beakers per turn. So, representation is really a must have.
But early expansion is also a must have and that too eventually leads to more beakers. And when it comes to the extra happiness, I usually experience health problems first. The best way to avoid unhappiness in the long run is to expand for hooking up resources. You can also use the heredetary rule which is cheaper than representation in terms of civic cost.And finally, at least in my playing style, you get access to representation by research before the use of specialists really takes off.

 

[Giaur]

Pyramind are extremaly expensive and you don't always have stone. If you are a warmonger there's a chance that your neighbour has just complited them. From our point of view he made a wrong decision and your 10 praets built instead of Pyramids will do their best. To be more cruel wait until he finishes Great Library and then take him down. However Representation is the best civic by far.
Still cottage spamming might not be very original but it do it's job. Even on the highest levels.
Assuming: GP farms differs from Commerce cities:
1) the first one are bigger, so you have to import many luxuries
2) they inspire your population, and GP are born

I am a warmonger too and well positioned commerce cities with high production are better choice ...

 

[kristopherb]

'State Police' makes my Praetorians smile...

representation/vassalage/churchill makes my redcoats berzerkers

 

[warezfan]

I guess I think representation is totally useless. I assume I may run representation if I had a very small city count (like 4-5) and all my cities were floodplain cities (extra food) AND I could run caste system for unlimited specialists.

Yes that's true, should have small amount cities if you are using representation. But you don't need all flood plains, as long as there is enough food in a few cities to be able to get a bunch of scientist going and still grow.

Another thing you might do is run pacifism too, then you will get plenty of great scientist which is +9 science instead of just +6.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Think of it this way, the +3 happiness in your top six cities from Representation means you have an extra 18 soldiers to fight with! Thats an extra army for free.

That's not correct. You still need one unit garrisoning each city, to avoid the happiness penalty for undefended cities. So Representation gives the same effect as Hereditary Rule with 2 less units per city (12 total, on large maps), not 3.