Re: Civilization 4: Age of Empires 2 TBS edition Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations
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Originally posted by StarLightDeath
When I first started playing this game I thought it was the greatest game ever. I was lost in all the new terrain improvements and the new unit upgrades and all the bells and whistles. As I play it more and more now I realize that it is just make up on a cheap whore. Civilization 4 is in fact Age of Empires 2 Turn Based Edition. Let me explain before I become irreversably mauled by a horde of fanboys.
I can see how you are confusing TBS and RTS clearly now. You're asking for time to state your case which is contained in the same post.
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First the combat system in civ4 is very different in that there is no longer a defense value, it is just a general strength value that is modified by upgrades and defensive bonuses.
Quite true. Run the math on the combinations possible yet? Puts A/D to shame.
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In addition you now have a rock, paper scissors system, just like in AOC where you have the counter system.
Rock, paper, scissors, true. Just like AOC though... not really.
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The problem comes in with the fact that Civ4 isn't AOC...obvious right?
You begin to agree.
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Well the counter system in AOC worked because AOC had this thing called unit micro; it was a god damn TBS game. You had spears being microed against scouts, archers against spears, skirms against archers, etc. Well in civ4 there isn't that, the unit that is attacking automatically attacks the unit that counters it in the defending stack making the counter system completely mindless.
You've agreed, the r/p/c in CIV isn't just like in AOC.
As for the stack and counter stuff, the unit attacks the stack, and the best defender against that unit defends. It may or may not be the "counter". It may seem like a technicality, but it's not. Because the counter isn't guaranteed to be there. Thus the real military strategy is in designing an offense or defense that won't be countered, or countered as much, by your enemy. Reading your opponent, setting them up, and having the upper hand in intelligence plays a huge role in that.
Though micro definitely isn't completely absent. It just works differently than in RTS. You have to think ahead, place units, and deal with the consequences of those placements. Rather than just being the quickest (with the lowest latency) and most accurate clicker. Even some of that does seep in at the end/start of turns in simul.
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In addition we lack the features that made TBS...well, strategy. We don't have ZOC, we don't have offensive values and defensive values. We have just one flat rate with insane defensive values awarded to units in cities. You're talking 25% for fortification, 60% for city bonus, 20% for each city defense upgrade on archers, and we aren't even talking about a city with walls and on a hill. Obviously if you do the math you'll see that the city raider upgrade isn't **** compared to the defensive bonus.
So make them come out and play or lose their economy. If they sit in their city, let them sit in a city with no improvements. I wonder who gets to Cats first? (Ooops, skipping ahead.)
Or hit them quick somewhere they aren't prepared for. Or overbuild military and come with numbers they can't handle. Options abound. I've taken lots of cities in MP, not just early rushes either, and I'm just a lowly SP lifer.
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In comes the catapult, the unit we all screamed was useless in civ3. Now it does collateral damage to stacks, and it just happens to be the ONLY way to defeat a stack.
Not really. Overloading a specific unit type kills "counter" stacks too. You just sacrifice enough to get through those relatively few counters and then the rest of the stack folds like a deck of cards. It's in turned countered by an overloaded stack of that particular counter... which is in turn countered... and yes, in some cases the true combine arms stack is the best.
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Are you with me? Yes, that means you can't take any properly defended cities until you get construction which is about half way through a typical 150 turn limit game on Quick.
Ack! 75 turns to Construction? It can definitely take that long (or longer), but it certainly doesn't have to take anywhere near that long.
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So now you have a very obvious "strategy" evolving which I like to call the stack and cat. Just throw together a mass of units and march right on in.
Mmmmm... free XP! That's what a thoughtless stack (in composition and/or application) ends up being when it invades a smart defender.
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Oh, and don't forget to use a "combined arms" force in order to "counter" their units; according to some of the beta testers this is where the real skill lies. So what happens if, god forbid, the defender decides he'll throw catapults in too? Well...don't bother taking the city. Try what's called a "choke" and ummm...you know...choke his economy. Real effective.
Nothing wrong with options. Combined arms works well in some cases, not so well in others. Same with "chokes". Lots of little stacks make Cats much less useful, so there's your micro against Cat heavy defenses.
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Basically you have a really neat looking combat system with all these fancy upgrades that really do nothing. Defense is king in this game except very early on which brings me to my next point.
I've seen some Sledgehammers that worked very well. (And some early rushes that fell flat on their face.)
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Rushing...the hallmark of RTS games. While this isn't a bad thing, the difference is that in RTS games you have this thing called economy that slows down your rush. In Civ4 you have this thing called luck of the strategic resources that determines whether you can rush, defend a rush, or die to a rush.
There is a valid point here actually. There is quite a bit of random factors into gameplay. (Some would say that's what gives the civ series it's rather endless replayability.)
It can be eliminated completely if desired though. Map scrips are customizable, and if you want the RTS every game with every unit play, just write a little script to make sure everyone gets the same resources or start. (Not sure if Mirror does this or not already with resources?)
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In addition, without ZOC you can't play map control or fortify that weak warrior on a hill and hope to defeat a chariot. Basically just hope you have the resources to stop the rush, or hope you have the resources to do a rush yourself.
ZOC isn't there of course. There are resourceless counters to rushes though still. As you've already pointed out, defensive bonuses really stack up for Archers in cities. (Though you're very likely to get "choked", which you seem to think is not a valid option thankfully, so I can ignore it right?)
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Since expansion is really difficult you can't try to outexpand the guy. Your options are so limited it's ridiculous.
You can certainly expand "poorly" or "well". To extreme degrees actually. Not only can you expand faster or slower, but you can expand yourself into economic ruin if you do it wrong.
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I can't put into words how idiotic I feel the developers are. What were you thinking?
Since I had some input in the developement... thanks... very constructive... "No ZOC or A/D, game is broken even though I've enjoyed playing it. You're idiots.", check. Needless to say, the little insult is the main reason I decided to respond. I don't mind if you don't like the game, but insulting the people who worked on it, and trying to back up that insult with a poor understanding of the game mechanics is too choice of a target.
As for what I think personally, the game made great strides towards eliminating "in your face" strategies. It's subtle. You have to work it. It's not longer "get tech X, build/upgrade to unit Y, win" every time out as so much of civ has been in the past. I do wish the elimination of micro hadn't gone so far, but as someone very firmly planted at the extreme of the issue (with my preference at least, thankfully not with my reaction to it), I don't expect a game to be designed for me.
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You got rid of things that make up the strategy in TBS games (ZOC, offensive and defensive values, map control through terrain) and then combined it with features from AOC (rushing, counter units) but without the skill that made those kinds of things fun to end up with this bland mass that makes gaining any sort of lead on your opponent impossible.
ZOC and A/D are gone. I would prefer they were there, but not because they leave a strategic hole relatively speaking. What replaced them is much more deep and allows much more variation. A/D has nothing on promotions. ZOC can't make up the difference, especially when r/p/c and stack vs collateral are increasing the gap.
I do wish it would have combined instead of substituted...
But saying ZOC and A/D are what makes a strategy game... just ask yourself this, are ZOC and A/D in Chess? It's possible to have strategy without them.
And that you can't figure out how to gain a lead on your opponents only shows your lack of ability (in relation to who you are playing). If you're playing against Fried... you would still be very good of course.
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The point system is huge in MP play. Points determine who wins the game when the turns run out. Well the way they set it up makes it so that even the worst player in the world will still stay in the game.
Only if you're not much better than the worst player in the world. I've been in 100 turn games where one player took out 2 or 3 others and won on points. I've been in games where one player took out 2 or 3 others and was still trailing in points. Then there are games that are actual Conquests (especially 1v1, but even in 4-5 player FFAs it happens). Then there are games where no one can take out anyone else, and it's determined by points. It's... variable.
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Yes, that's right, all you have to do is build a few cities, throw out some workers and throw them on automate, and put units your ciites and you will hang at least half way through the game until the guy gets catapults.
Again with halfway through the game with Catapults? 75 turns. What are you doing? Anyways... that guy sitting in his cities is asking to be made insignificant. You don't even need the Catapults because economically improvements (+ pillaged gold) > no improvements . Who really even cares if he survives if he's a non-factor?
And automated Workers?
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Why? Because military has no bearing on points.
It does if you raze someone's city. Both for them and you, as your shared borders are now yours to expand more freely. If you eliminate them, it has the most absolute bearing on their points possible, and is going to open up a lot of room for you. (And when in games where it's not razing, it's transfering points.)
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In addition, culture and city size are huge point gainers. So not only can you not expand much faster than the other guy, but you can't kill him through military and now he can even win just by sitting back and growing. FUN! "But there's so many options to improve your terrain, it's just so 'deep'!" Deep seems to be the word I hear alot, and I admit, I thought it was deep too. But when you get right down to it, you don't need more than maybe 1 or 2 farms to grow big. All you need is towns to keep up the upkeep and build a wonder or something. Hell, do whatever you want as long as you defend properly you'll stay in the game. So really the depth of the economy isn't really so deep after all.
How can you possibly defend properly with a "do whatever you want" economy backing it? I don't care how you defend, if your economy is 1/2 the other guy, you're almost certainly screwed (be it military or economy).
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I find the game fun right now only because I am still trying to find that way to get ahead...but as time goes on and I realize there really is no way to get ahead I'm going to realize that there is no point to playing this game competitively multiplayer.
So you admit you haven't realized yet that there is no point to the game, yet are making the point that there is no point to the game. Getting ahead of yourself? Trying to talk yourself out of the fun you admit to have been having with the game?
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Maybe I'm wrong and there's some secret to this game that adds all the depth and strategy in the world, but I just don't see it.
It's possible that the game will take more than 6 days to figure out. We can hope, right?