Civilization PBEM???

[Hommer]

Major introduce the idea of World Map scenario. I think it is a great idea. It allow to introduce some new principes in our game.

However it needs great work from MapMaker...

 

[Hommer]

I have some ideas about the further changing of e-civ tree (case of Pro and Team games):

1) Reduce the cost of wood, food and money gathering, for productive work of resource-mining villages. Big gathering buildings (starting with Cutiing Area) should be increased in cost but also have increased productivity.
2) The differences between low- and top-level of Strategic resources smelters should be greatly reduced; now we have 4 times more common productivity of strategic resources with the introducing of next level of smelters (e.g. IronFactory have productivity of all 3 IronSmith). I suggest to reduce this difference, because the lack of single science have very dramatic effect...
3) Advanced Strategic resource's Smelters should be available MUCH earlier in the game. In the Last Pro4 game I don't even discover IronFactory - let's remember, game finished at the 72th turn. Also I suggest to introduce additional level of Bronze and possible Oil smelters and to balance its productivity to the Iron smelters - Iron output should be less than others.
4) Remove all useless or rare-used resources like Dragons and MemorialOfStupidity. Also I suggest to analyze the tree of knowledge for reducing the number of resources. E.g. it's very easy to completely wipe RaceHorse from the game.
5) Introduce "colonization" level of main types of buildings (like food, money, wood and stone buildings) with the reduced Construction cost and increased Productivity. But give him high resource cost - possibly Strategic resources...
6) For the economic-military balance I suggest to significally reduce "bonus city percents" for industrial buildings and increase (or add) these percents to the military buildings. Reduce the cost of military buildings.
7) Speed of equipment should be significanty reduced. As maximum I suggest speed 3 (totally 5) - for non-combat equipment like ScoutHorse (AKA Pegasus).
8) Range of fire for ranged weapons should be reduced; and limited by e.g. 4 - range of fight of hand-to-hand cavalry. Exception: immobile city defencive weapons.
9) Cost of war-machines should be increased.
10) Infantry battle orders should be more defencive than offencive.
11) Cost of terraforming and off-city consatructions should be increased. Roads included. Earth road should costs at least 500 points - so it should be constructed for moving purposes only.
12) Production of money buildings should be raised, but money-cost of economical and science building should be increased. This is the ecenomy-war belance action.
13) Balance the weights of weapons and armor; most or armors are lighter than weapons. Possibly we need to introduce additional sorts of armor - lighter or heavier than usual armor.
14) Ranged weapons should be produced in two-step process: e.g. first we need to produce Ammunition, weapons should be produced from Ammunition. It's quite simple in realization for modern weapons starting from Bronze but in the StoneAge there are problems... It's additional balance between Hand-to-hand and Ranged weapons.

 

[Hommer]

There is the suggestion of changing of battle algoryth, made my GMs (it means this suggestions can be implemeted quickly ). Let's see:

We suggest to change the depending of units parameters based on Experience. At the current moment it is (Attack_of_all_armaments)+Exp_level. We propose the introduce of experience-based coefficient and change the formulae to K*(Attack_of_all_armaments) + Exp_level, where K is

Lvl K -- Exp
0 -- 0.4 -- 0-3
1 -- 0.6 -- 4-7
2 -- 0.8 -- 8-15
3 -- 1.0 -- 16-31
4 -- 1.5 -- 32-63
5 -- 2.0 -- 64

Minimal real Attack and Defence of unit should be 1; possible defence should stay at 0.

The example of units calculated by new formulae:

------ Club+LA -|--------- Ballista+LBrA -|- StellCannon LStA
Now - 1 -att--|- 4 -def---|- 10 ---- 10 ---|- 40 ---- 19
Newly:
0 ----- 1 -----| 1 --------| 4 ------- 4 ---|- 16 ----- 3
1 ----- 2=1+1 | 3=2+1 -| 7 ------- 7 ----|- 25 ----- 12
2 ----- 3=1+2 | 5=3+2 -| 10 ---- 10 ----|- 34 ----- 17
3 ----- 4=1+3 | 7=4+3 -| 13 ---- 13 ----|- 43 ----- 22
4 ----- 5=1+4 | 10=6+4 | 19 ---- 19 ----|- 64 ---- 32
5 ----- 7=2+5 | 13=8+5 | 25 ---- 25 ----|- 85 ---- 43

The parameters of newly calculated units are written in the GameBase by Server directly, so client program will operate with the real parameters. The changes of external battle-simulator can be made quite simply. The difficulcies are only in the case of new unit forming and upgrade - you will see changes only next turn.

City Milita will become much more weak.

The first tests were successful.

We are waiting for your opinions and suggestions!

 

[Hommer]

Test6 game is still in pre-start condition. Novice players can take a part in it!

 

[Hommer]

Test6 game started! 20 players total (too low for regular game but it is test and it's summer now ), two positions are open still.

The game have quick start mode - 10.000 people at the start; usually at the start the players have 500-2000 people.

This game is based on Pro-server, so Pro-client program is required!

The game is targeted for test of many of new features:

- New system of military unit experience (see previous topics)

- Ranged weapons can have new "Multiple shot" ability. It is listed in Defence field. Zero and 1 defence means one shot per kill.

- Melee units can have new "Multiple swings" ability. It is displayed in Ammo field. When the first swing is succesful and striker have survived, the serie of swings continues without retaliation. Ammo 0 and 1 is considered as 1 swing per strike.

- The speed of units affects the total attack level of unit:
*** Ranged units have attack = attack * (12-speed)/10.
*** Melee units have attack = attack * (8+speed)/10.

- Fixed bug of one-side peace agreements.

- Changes of Diplomatic states are displayed in Events.

- When player tries to create Caravan with more than 30K size, then many caravans less than 30K are created.

- The Rating of player in the certain fields is shown to player by creating of FREE caravan with the specific resources: food for population, money for money, wood for science.

- Milita size cannot exceed the (MoraleCity-50)*Population/2.

- Newly built buildings are loaded by free people (if any). The production don't choosen.

- The MageGuild (Building ekb01) produce extra resource for free if at least one resourse is produced.

- The Rating calculation is changed: 500 Money are 1 rating point instead of 200 money before.

The changes are great. Somebody, correct my terrible English!

 

[Hoh]

He.

Howbowt a quarell?

Mindless flooder that one can observe in the thread has talked about war so long, that even such a Peacefull Peasant as yours truly has finally believed him and thought that Hommer whants to fight.

And what? As soon as the war was started, I (our team in fact) was abused of unleashing a stupid war, that will bring nothing but disasters to all our countries.

Hommer, what you can say on that?



As to the game - well... It's a drug. By the end of every game I promise myself, that never again I will waste my life on this mess. And every time I can't hold this promise. I play again and again

 

[Hommer]

You say you want peace?.. Hehe, I don't believe you: I send many letters to you with the peace treaties but you reject it hoping KPAIHA can help you to defeat us.

But on this map it is not easy task. I think Team2 is almost completely different game than Team1. And all others island games like Pro3 or Test4 differs greatly from continental games, like Pro1-2, Mid1 or so.

The change of game rules also don't allow to leave the game.

 

[Hoh]

Nai!

I never said that I want peace, I just said that I am peacefull .

I hope team will not object if we disclose the messages from our group. You will find that noone whanted to fight you that much. Dramatic misundestanding, mutual insult, enemies around - and we have what we have *sight*

Anyway, you mentioned many times, that "build bakery first race" sucks, and once you are given opportunity to have fighting fun (loosing rating at all the sides of the frontier line, alas), you seem to be dissapointed again. "Whom are you with, Masters of Art?", as Khrushchev used to say .

BTW. There are no bricks in Yakutsk. Can't you supply some, so that I can build an aqueduck - I don't whant to be accused of gestapo-like war when you get the city back, you know .

Team2 has too peacefull map, IMHO. Experience of landing on enemies continents shows that there should be some patching done in the sea science - first ships should carry more cargo. Then we can have more adequate battles. Today it is hard (I would say too hard) to transport a reasonable army to enemy's land. Though, let's see, what will happen, when Major chooses a victim. If he chooses peasants and manages to deteat us before I leave for vacations, I shall have a pleasant time not thinking about what is left at home .

--------------

Yeah. There is no winning stategy known - you only can say what was good for the passed game, not for the new one.

 

[Hommer]

Experience of landing on enemies continents shows that there should be some patching done in the sea science - first ships should carry more cargo.

I don't think so; the Small Galley even in fully armed case can carry about 150 stone and even bronze INFANTRY warriors; you use the hit-and-run tactics so you use cavalry units, they are TOO heavy indeed. Oops, I don't said that, you don't hear that. Look at the Binga city - it is possible to carry big units in single Small Galley.

The map is not peaceful; it is just balanced for long wars, not for "create first stone-bronze-ballistae units and run-run-run over the enemy cities". As it was in Team1 or Pro2. And sometimes in Pro4.

Winning strategy... There is one - try to keep peace with everyone and grow economically; in the some cases the war is not needed even to win the game; the winner of Pro2 is Skils who don't declare any wars in the whole game; he don't kill any people of other empires. I think this strategy works even in Team game - because teams wars are more bloody and even winner of the war is seriously weakened; trophies don't guaranteer the significant addition of rating.

I think the war is the most funny thing in any game so peaceful players anyways have much less fun than warrior player.

 

[Hoh]

I don't believe in infantry. It is too slow. Block the roads, couple of sea towns and voila. Small cavalry can move faster and attack anywere. You need much more forces to block such assaults. Well, we will see, whos strategy is better.

The winning stategy you are talking about was good once - in Pro02. BTW, the second player in the charts was very close, and he wasn't that peacefull . Also I think this noncence (Skilza, nothing personal ) has happened because of not ideal rating calculations. Test06 is a step in the right direction IMHO.

And finally, about fun . We defenitelly are having it, huh?

Writing this I thougt, that cavalry in the mountains shouldn't be faster then infantry, though it is in our case. Bug and kosiak.

 

[Hommer]

If you will be play (and fight) enough in Pro3 and Pro04, you will be more satisfied with Infantry. It is much harder and cheaper than Cavalry and war-machines. Look, even Ballista have 10+exp_level attack (10-15 actually) but green cheap infantry can have 12 defence (Shielded_spear+LA+Phalanx). Such infantry can be produced in ANY quantities; strategic resorces are not needed, and only two stone and one food per warrior is used as resources (money don't counted, they are anywhere).

Such units help our island to defend against two higher-rated players attack in Pro4 (game leader XOMA and then Pharaon).

Certainly they are too slow for raids and too weak to transport it over seas. Only for defence.

 

[Hoh]

I had experience in Pro03, you should remember . And what I experienced was that a slow army can be caught by a fast one. I had to hold a couple of intersector armies to fight Finrod's troops. But Batyr' (bte where is he now? Or he is Another Phantom form Kharkov?) has broken our defence with a HUGE number of ships. He just brought 10000 people, food, resources and defenders. Whithin one move we had an enemy city on our continent, full of defenders with defence 10+. After that he just started to bring the warriors. And damn, they all were fast . I lost one my province at the last turn, because of war-elephants with ballistas...

 

[Hommer]

It is because you almost have no army.

If you brings the 10K of battle-meat units (as in Pro4 do I and Maikl, in the reduced size indeed) to the citadel city of Batyr in your island you can capture it easy. Even without support of any others armies. Yes, it is not so beatiful and smart but it is highly effective.

In Pro3 my favorite units was LongRangedCrossbow+BronzePlate+StormTower. Slow but too hard armored - the defence is about 40. Ballista have 15 attack in the best case so no chance for fast warriors. I plans to send my army to the your island but prefer to attack Mid part of game. My armies (3K people or so) were standing on the mountain barrier and ships were ready to invade the another world but the game was stopped by Skilza sign-off. I have plans to fight against game leader and.

Well, let's see what we will have later in the Team2 game.

 

[Hoh]

You call 3K soldiers army in Pro03?!
That was peanuts. The battles were about 6K vs 9K and so.

Batyr' has brought 10K citizens. The army to defend them was about 12K, maybe 9K, not less. Most with cannons and archebusas, some alebards.

 

[Hommer]

I can remind what I have at the mountain ridge but it was BIG army; at least against it there was no defence from the other side, except of few Privateers (Frigates in the latest games).

And what do you say, 9K, not less?.. I specially have a look - 2K people in one really hard unit and two others builders units for 500 people.

No, battles 6k vs 9k was in your mind.

 

[Hoh]

Well, I didn't find any reps of this game at my computer. So I have to admit that your're right.

But the memories are ah so sweet... Don't you dare to spoil them .

 

[Hommer]

The Batyr certainly was bringing many units to the your island but they will not defenders but raiders. Many of them were slained by Titan or you so I'm simply don't see anything dangerous in your island belonging to Batyr.

The sea maps are more intriguing than continental, aren't they? In Team2 you with KPAIHA is beating to our defences for about 10 turns but you just anger us. In the continental maps you possibly can defeat us for much shorter time.

 

[Hoh]

Well, if a loss of 3K city is nothing but just angering, saing nothing about pillaged towns and needs to hold about a 2K army, then you are in very good conditions .

So, I'll have to rase another couple of hundreds of arbaleters and couple hundreds of sword+shield fellows .

 

[Hommer]

You want to raze your own army??? You looks like our beatiful President Putin!

Do you seriously think we lose this city? We just give it to you in arenda; possibly you can construct here the advanced buildings that we can capture and gain science from you.
Have you any idea how to defend Yakutsk? I'm also don't have any.

Your arbaleters and swordmans are too green to be the real trouble for us. You just spend your Bronze for nothing.

Who say we hold 2K army?.. You don't see our mainland - it is much larger. We are waiting the GoldenFlowers attack and preparing some surprises for them.

Hmm. I see that even Moro, who played in Pro4 and fighting with us against game leader KPAIHA, don't know the basics of sea combat - he installs 8(!) small ballistas to the Boats. Why we cannot unmount it from the defeated ships and use it more properly?..

 

[Hoh]

I am still waiting for bricks for Aqueduck . And another thing - I don't know a 3K city Yakutsk with scientific buildings. Do you ?

Fine, more than 2K. A medium town population is eating money instead of paying taxes and breeding people. Do me a favor, raise another couple, better two of thousants of soldiers .

As to the boats, this stupid klient-bug can and must be filtered at server level. Let this be another cent for next Pro or Test