readercolin
King
- Joined
- May 7, 2009
- Messages
- 604
I have to disagree with you on most counts, though I agree about not putting Infernal/Mercurians in with this, as far too much depends upon what happens before they arrive:
Teir 1:
Khazid, Lanuan, Ljosfalter
Teir 2:
Balsferas, Clan of Embers, Calibam
Teir 3:
Lurchip, Sheaim, Grigori, Svartalfar, Hippus, Illians
Teir 4:
Malakim, Kuriotates
Teir 5:
Sidar, Amurites, Bannor
Teir 6:
Dovollio, Elohim
Do note though, I don't restrict my feelings for these civs to just pangea maps. I generally end up playing Pangea, Global Highlands, Lakes (both regular lakes and tectonics lakes), Continents, and 1-2 others. Now, as for why I rank them as I do:
Teir 1:
The Khazid
The Khazid are, IMO, probably the strongest civ in the game (especially in production). The reasons for this are simple - they have a massive production boost, they get a bonus to happiness, they are strongly focused down one line instead of being spread out amongst many, and ingenuity allows for some very easy ways in which to rapidly build up a force.
The Lanuan
The Lanuan, provided that they have a bit of water (not difficult), have the best economy in the game, and it is also not easily damaged by most other civs. They sometimes are a bit production starved, but being able to get to teir 2 faster than anyone else somewhat makes up for this. Their teir 3 is a bit weak, but again, there are rather easy ways to make up for this.
The Ljosfalter
And lastly the Ljosfalter have the benefit of probably the strongest balanced economy in the game, if they follow FoL as their starting religion. Their strength also lies down a strong defensive line, allowing them to (generally) survive the early game pretty easy, and stomp everything else in the lategame. They also have the benefit of a strong, very synergistic hero who comes around exactly when they need him most.
Teir 2:
The Balsferas
The Clan of Embers
The Clan of Embers is very powerful on the offense, being the only civ that can pull out 2 units at a time. Their only downfall is their economy, which isn't that hot. However, being able to quickly pumping out alot of units very quickly allows them to run a smaller standing army until they need the large one, and when attacking being able to almost always outnumber their opponents gives them a distinct advantage. Unitwise, they aren't missing much, and what they are missing generally isn't that important.
The Calibam
The Calibam is a very powerful civ economy wise. Their vampires are also very powerful. However, they don't really have much going for them before the vampires roll around. In the lategame, they are probably the most powerful civ, but its the problem of getting there that makes me put them at only teir 2.
Teir 3:
The Lurchip
The Lurchip have golems. This can be good, with a stack of adepts healing them and the golems being able to shoot fireballs. However, the golems are always limited to 1 movement, and cannot gain levels. In the end, I almost always find myself wishing I could get a real army. Being able to pull the gimmick of fireballing and insta heal from adepts is something of a wash in my opinion. What places them as high as teir 3 is that both leaders are financial and generally always manage to get a decent economy. Do note that Golems cost more to build then regular units (axman costs 60 hammers, Wood golem costs 90), which means that they generally NEVER outnumber their opponents… and that would really be the only thing that would allow their strategy to matter.
The Sheiam
The Sheaim have pyre zombies, and that’s the ONLY reason why they make teir 3. Yeah, both leaders are summoners, and they can stack death mana really well, but in most cases this turns into something of a gimmick to smash a city after its been hit by a bunch of pyre zombies. Other than the pyre zombies though, they really don't have anything going for them, and a lot going against them.
The Grigori
The Grigori have adventurers. In the thread about the grigori, I showed that you can get as many as 8 adventurers by turn 300 if you push for it. However, this is something of a gimmick, and competitively you wouldn't really want to base your strategy around it. On the other hand, they can get 2 adventurers by turn 80, which gives them 2 hero's that they can turn into whatever they want, long before anyone else gets ANY hero's. Otherwise, by this point in the game, their economy matches anyone else, making them a top rushing civ if that’s how you want to play them. In addition, being able to be philosophical/financial means that they can have an incredible economy, if they are willing to put aside adventurers. The only downside of the grigori, and what bumps them down to a mere 3rd teir civ is that they can't benefit from religions.
The Svartalfar
The Svartalfar can get the same economy as the Ljosfalter. However, their being evil makes them greatly more susceptible to the Armageddon counter and hell terrain, and their leader isn't that good compared to the leaders the Ljosfalter have to choose from. Lastly, their specialty is recon units, which are generally useless in most regards, giving them no military advantage to bump them up a teir or two.
The Hippus
The Hippus are ok, but I really don't understand why you think they deserve to be a teir 1 civ. Their economy is only good under Rohanna, but they have absolutely nothing going for them aside from warcry and a little bit better movement on their horse units. You can use horse units in massive waves with good high withdraw rate to allow them to replace catapults for that purpose, but even the sidar can do that. Their special unit is a mounted mercenary, who while admittedly is better than regular mercenaries, isn't better than champions, and considering that the horse archers can start off with promotions isn't really much better than them. So, for benefits, we have warcry, and a leader who is aggressive and raiders. There are a great many other leaders who are aggressive, and raiders I don't see as that great. So you have a decent rushing civ, but one that can be matched by many of the other civs.
The Illians
I wasn't sure where to put the Illians. Economy wise, they don't have that much going for them, though being able to essentially transform any workable tiles to "grassland" is decent. In the early game, they are ok, though they don't have that much going for them (except stasis). Midgame, again they don't have much too much going for them. Lategame though they do get many pretty toys. However, aside from religious stuff, they aren't restricted from anything.
Teir 4:
The Malakim
The Malakim are decent, but generally not that great. They get stronger benefits from religion than most of the other civs, but in general, religion isn't where the greatest hitting power of a civ is. Economy wise, they are also decent, but again, not that great. They really don't have much to show for themselves in any manner.
The Kuriotates
The Kuriotates limit to 3 cities is what breaks them, at least in my opinion. Yes, they can have as many cities as any other civ in the first 100 turns or so, but after that every other civ will just grow larger while they kinda stagnate. Yeah, they have centaurs. Well guess what - centaurs are mounted units, and they STILL suck. Yeah, you get decent movement out of them, and they can get defensive bonuses, but in the end axmen/champions are still better. Economy wise, they can have 3 cities, and each city needs to be carefully placed. Generally, with any other civ being able to quickly expand and get more cities, their economy is usually less than that of any other civ after 100 turns. In addition, those 3 cities are all that they get, which means that each is significantly more important, and they can produce a maximum of 3 units in a turn. With any other civ, even if they can't produce a unit a turn (which the Kuriotates may not be able to do in all their cities either) they can have significantly more cities producing things, allowing them to surpass the Kuriotates maximum of 3 units a turn easily.
Teir 5:
The Sidar
The Sidar have a unique gimmick in being able to want level 6 units, and their specialists get better benefits than others. However, their leader traits are rather poor, and their units are nothing special. Generally, they are an ok gimmick civ, but in the end rank lower than most on my totem pole.
The Amurites
The Amurites can get firebows. Yes, I know you love firebows. Getting to firebows however is something of a problem, as they have absolutely nothing to help them economy wise. And on top of that, firebows are made of paper. Yes, the can have the same attack strength as a non-metal champion as long as they have bronze. However, they have the defensive strength of an axmen (of any teir), unless you waste a promotion of stoneskin (which requires that you get govornnan first). This makes them decent on the offense, but anyone else can significantly outnumber them with axmen, and have the same defensive strength/slightly lower attacking strength. Firebows are a neat gimmick, but in the end, 1 neat gimmick a strong civ does not make.
The Bannor
The Bannor are like the amurites in that they have 1 neat gimmick in the teir 3 stage. However, they have nothing to help them get to that stage, and getting that gimmick takes A LOT of research to get to. In the end, though, the strength of this gimmick is rather high, which is the only thing that puts them above teir 6.
Teir 6:
The Dovollio
Lets face it, the Dovollio suck. They are supposed to be early rushers, and at that they are halfway decent ones. Once the bronze age rolls around for everyone though, it is generally too late for the dovollio, unless they managed to take out a few civs in that stage giving them a strong starting point. Their world spell sucks, and their units gradually get worse and worse. They are a neat civ to fiddle with in single player, and some of the modmods give them bonuses that bump them up a teir or two, but in the end they generally suck.
The Elohim
The Elohim have their worldspell which makes them immune to attack. Other than that, they really don't have much going for them. They are slightly better off than the dovollio in unit selection, but the inability to manage an early rush lowers them. In the end, I would place them about the same level as the dovollio as far as usefullness (well… slightly higher if you are going for a non-millitary victory)
Teir 1:
Khazid, Lanuan, Ljosfalter
Teir 2:
Balsferas, Clan of Embers, Calibam
Teir 3:
Lurchip, Sheaim, Grigori, Svartalfar, Hippus, Illians
Teir 4:
Malakim, Kuriotates
Teir 5:
Sidar, Amurites, Bannor
Teir 6:
Dovollio, Elohim
Do note though, I don't restrict my feelings for these civs to just pangea maps. I generally end up playing Pangea, Global Highlands, Lakes (both regular lakes and tectonics lakes), Continents, and 1-2 others. Now, as for why I rank them as I do:
Teir 1:
Spoiler :
The Khazid
Spoiler :
The Khazid are, IMO, probably the strongest civ in the game (especially in production). The reasons for this are simple - they have a massive production boost, they get a bonus to happiness, they are strongly focused down one line instead of being spread out amongst many, and ingenuity allows for some very easy ways in which to rapidly build up a force.
The Lanuan
Spoiler :
The Lanuan, provided that they have a bit of water (not difficult), have the best economy in the game, and it is also not easily damaged by most other civs. They sometimes are a bit production starved, but being able to get to teir 2 faster than anyone else somewhat makes up for this. Their teir 3 is a bit weak, but again, there are rather easy ways to make up for this.
The Ljosfalter
Spoiler :
And lastly the Ljosfalter have the benefit of probably the strongest balanced economy in the game, if they follow FoL as their starting religion. Their strength also lies down a strong defensive line, allowing them to (generally) survive the early game pretty easy, and stomp everything else in the lategame. They also have the benefit of a strong, very synergistic hero who comes around exactly when they need him most.
Teir 2:
Spoiler :
The Balsferas
Spoiler :
The balsferas are a very strong civ, though it doesn't the OP strength economy wise of the tier 1 civs, or the Calibam. However, their wide variety of special units, and the strength of the puppets (especially under keyleen), make them a very powerful civ that you can take down a great many number of paths. However, each path they take is also strong enough that they can afford to focus on just 1 or two and still be very powerful.
The Clan of Embers
Spoiler :
The Clan of Embers is very powerful on the offense, being the only civ that can pull out 2 units at a time. Their only downfall is their economy, which isn't that hot. However, being able to quickly pumping out alot of units very quickly allows them to run a smaller standing army until they need the large one, and when attacking being able to almost always outnumber their opponents gives them a distinct advantage. Unitwise, they aren't missing much, and what they are missing generally isn't that important.
The Calibam
Spoiler :
The Calibam is a very powerful civ economy wise. Their vampires are also very powerful. However, they don't really have much going for them before the vampires roll around. In the lategame, they are probably the most powerful civ, but its the problem of getting there that makes me put them at only teir 2.
Teir 3:
Spoiler :
The Lurchip
Spoiler :
The Lurchip have golems. This can be good, with a stack of adepts healing them and the golems being able to shoot fireballs. However, the golems are always limited to 1 movement, and cannot gain levels. In the end, I almost always find myself wishing I could get a real army. Being able to pull the gimmick of fireballing and insta heal from adepts is something of a wash in my opinion. What places them as high as teir 3 is that both leaders are financial and generally always manage to get a decent economy. Do note that Golems cost more to build then regular units (axman costs 60 hammers, Wood golem costs 90), which means that they generally NEVER outnumber their opponents… and that would really be the only thing that would allow their strategy to matter.
The Sheiam
Spoiler :
The Sheaim have pyre zombies, and that’s the ONLY reason why they make teir 3. Yeah, both leaders are summoners, and they can stack death mana really well, but in most cases this turns into something of a gimmick to smash a city after its been hit by a bunch of pyre zombies. Other than the pyre zombies though, they really don't have anything going for them, and a lot going against them.
The Grigori
Spoiler :
The Grigori have adventurers. In the thread about the grigori, I showed that you can get as many as 8 adventurers by turn 300 if you push for it. However, this is something of a gimmick, and competitively you wouldn't really want to base your strategy around it. On the other hand, they can get 2 adventurers by turn 80, which gives them 2 hero's that they can turn into whatever they want, long before anyone else gets ANY hero's. Otherwise, by this point in the game, their economy matches anyone else, making them a top rushing civ if that’s how you want to play them. In addition, being able to be philosophical/financial means that they can have an incredible economy, if they are willing to put aside adventurers. The only downside of the grigori, and what bumps them down to a mere 3rd teir civ is that they can't benefit from religions.
The Svartalfar
Spoiler :
The Svartalfar can get the same economy as the Ljosfalter. However, their being evil makes them greatly more susceptible to the Armageddon counter and hell terrain, and their leader isn't that good compared to the leaders the Ljosfalter have to choose from. Lastly, their specialty is recon units, which are generally useless in most regards, giving them no military advantage to bump them up a teir or two.
The Hippus
Spoiler :
The Hippus are ok, but I really don't understand why you think they deserve to be a teir 1 civ. Their economy is only good under Rohanna, but they have absolutely nothing going for them aside from warcry and a little bit better movement on their horse units. You can use horse units in massive waves with good high withdraw rate to allow them to replace catapults for that purpose, but even the sidar can do that. Their special unit is a mounted mercenary, who while admittedly is better than regular mercenaries, isn't better than champions, and considering that the horse archers can start off with promotions isn't really much better than them. So, for benefits, we have warcry, and a leader who is aggressive and raiders. There are a great many other leaders who are aggressive, and raiders I don't see as that great. So you have a decent rushing civ, but one that can be matched by many of the other civs.
The Illians
Spoiler :
I wasn't sure where to put the Illians. Economy wise, they don't have that much going for them, though being able to essentially transform any workable tiles to "grassland" is decent. In the early game, they are ok, though they don't have that much going for them (except stasis). Midgame, again they don't have much too much going for them. Lategame though they do get many pretty toys. However, aside from religious stuff, they aren't restricted from anything.
Teir 4:
Spoiler :
The Malakim
Spoiler :
The Malakim are decent, but generally not that great. They get stronger benefits from religion than most of the other civs, but in general, religion isn't where the greatest hitting power of a civ is. Economy wise, they are also decent, but again, not that great. They really don't have much to show for themselves in any manner.
The Kuriotates
Spoiler :
The Kuriotates limit to 3 cities is what breaks them, at least in my opinion. Yes, they can have as many cities as any other civ in the first 100 turns or so, but after that every other civ will just grow larger while they kinda stagnate. Yeah, they have centaurs. Well guess what - centaurs are mounted units, and they STILL suck. Yeah, you get decent movement out of them, and they can get defensive bonuses, but in the end axmen/champions are still better. Economy wise, they can have 3 cities, and each city needs to be carefully placed. Generally, with any other civ being able to quickly expand and get more cities, their economy is usually less than that of any other civ after 100 turns. In addition, those 3 cities are all that they get, which means that each is significantly more important, and they can produce a maximum of 3 units in a turn. With any other civ, even if they can't produce a unit a turn (which the Kuriotates may not be able to do in all their cities either) they can have significantly more cities producing things, allowing them to surpass the Kuriotates maximum of 3 units a turn easily.
Teir 5:
Spoiler :
The Sidar
Spoiler :
The Sidar have a unique gimmick in being able to want level 6 units, and their specialists get better benefits than others. However, their leader traits are rather poor, and their units are nothing special. Generally, they are an ok gimmick civ, but in the end rank lower than most on my totem pole.
The Amurites
Spoiler :
The Amurites can get firebows. Yes, I know you love firebows. Getting to firebows however is something of a problem, as they have absolutely nothing to help them economy wise. And on top of that, firebows are made of paper. Yes, the can have the same attack strength as a non-metal champion as long as they have bronze. However, they have the defensive strength of an axmen (of any teir), unless you waste a promotion of stoneskin (which requires that you get govornnan first). This makes them decent on the offense, but anyone else can significantly outnumber them with axmen, and have the same defensive strength/slightly lower attacking strength. Firebows are a neat gimmick, but in the end, 1 neat gimmick a strong civ does not make.
The Bannor
Spoiler :
The Bannor are like the amurites in that they have 1 neat gimmick in the teir 3 stage. However, they have nothing to help them get to that stage, and getting that gimmick takes A LOT of research to get to. In the end, though, the strength of this gimmick is rather high, which is the only thing that puts them above teir 6.
Teir 6:
Spoiler :
The Dovollio
Spoiler :
Lets face it, the Dovollio suck. They are supposed to be early rushers, and at that they are halfway decent ones. Once the bronze age rolls around for everyone though, it is generally too late for the dovollio, unless they managed to take out a few civs in that stage giving them a strong starting point. Their world spell sucks, and their units gradually get worse and worse. They are a neat civ to fiddle with in single player, and some of the modmods give them bonuses that bump them up a teir or two, but in the end they generally suck.
The Elohim
Spoiler :
The Elohim have their worldspell which makes them immune to attack. Other than that, they really don't have much going for them. They are slightly better off than the dovollio in unit selection, but the inability to manage an early rush lowers them. In the end, I would place them about the same level as the dovollio as far as usefullness (well… slightly higher if you are going for a non-millitary victory)
as well as having knowledge of all the civs I was playing which does bias you.
I would put elf nations on even tiers, as they play almost exactly the same. "almost" meaning one is more offense oriented and one defense oriented. 
