Civs and Graphics

[GeoModder]

Some quick comments. More later.
I'm not really sure what Rubin's view on bases is, that is if the absence of tiny buildings is intentional or not.
For instance here he says "I could not avoid to change the models to include empty space, because otherwise the Peacekeeper texture would mess with the University texture (I fixed a few domes as well)." Does the need for "empty space" for some reason have to do with the absence of tiny buildings? I haven't got a clue. As usual, I don't have a clue what people are talking about when discussing citysets.

Well, having open-spaced bases is what I remember from the last discussion with Rubin I participated in on this subject. If you're happy with it I'll just leave it as is and copy the xml for the other factions.

I'll release a new patch today or tomorrow.

With my changes, I hope? Btw, it doesn't alter gameplay in any way, it's just graphical.

I figured I'd just add new eras. I assume removing all references to the old ones would be more work than just leaving them in place. Or am I wrong in this regard? In any case, the "ancient" era definitely needs to stay as that's where all techs belong to.

Hmm, that could be definitely cool. I always found it a little ridiculous for instance the first thing the Peacekeepers built after Planetfall was a Taj Mahal lookalike. Talk about white elephant projects... I guess the Greenhouse nif could also be used for early city looks.Anything else?
Plus I was thinking of making two eras for technology anyway. That way the player could start a game with the Pirates and Angels in the second era. Though I'm not sure how yet if that could work. Link for background reference.

I'm not sure how a second set of twelve eras would work though. Is there enough art for this?? Besides, as the game progresses and bases become bigger, I guess bases become more impressive looking automatically anyway.

Okay. So you need the Ancient era (you know you can rename it with the second line of the paragraph, don't you?), 12 era's after that, one for each faction, and I suppose one more era (future era at present) for the last future tech of the techtree. The second set of 12 era's would be for a graphic transition from prefab stuff to faction-specific art. But that's not really necessary and avoiding it makes things simplier for the python call to new era for each civ you plan on. As on your Angels/Pirates/... idea, there's the colony code that lets new civs start with the agreement of the "home" civ. Perhaps this code is transfereble to a non-voluntary situation.

I had a look. The only base facilities which are definitely not needed and I should remove are the "Nerve Staplers" and the Soil Enricher". Probably the "Biosphere" as well, though I might still use that name. There are a whole bunch of other unused base facilities in the XML files. They have as their tech prereq TECH_NEVER. Those I *might* use after a tech tree review, but I'm not entirely sure yet.

It's the nature of modding however that content gets added, balanced or remove all the time, including some facilities (though the ones you already put in LSystem are an assured value of course). Therefore an LSystem which doesn't require me calling on you every time I add a base facility would be preferable of course.

So I'm wondering, if I add a new facility, can I just eg use LSYSTEM_CRECHE for that facility as well, and will that work correctly?
The way you added building LSystems to the file kinda looks understandable to me in fact. Who knows, mimicking what you've done, who knows I might be able to add a new facility to the LSystem file myself.

I noticed quite a few "Tech_Never" entries in the BuildingsInfos. Okay, then I only link up art to the ones with a tech prerequisite.
For adding new art to new facilities, it's best if you copy a previous entry in the CIV4ArtDefines_Building file, and give a similar name to the Lsystem tag as in the type tag after the initial keyword (ART_DEF_BUILDING_ and LSYSTEM_). Using this system frees the art from being restricted a single size on the game screen (ie the 3x2 size of the HQ). The only thing you need to do then is make an entry in Civ4CityLSystem file to the proper building leafnode (do a search for "LEAF [number]x[number] BUILDINGS" in this file), and there you have your art, hopefully in a leaf slot with the proper size (meaning it doesn't crop in adjacent facilities/city buildings ).

It's the HQ which adds the GO to all bases as a free building, including the capital. Trying to do the same thing in python, I'd probably have to account for all kinds of special situations like bases being captured, the GO being able to be destroyed by spy missions etc. I'd like to avoid that if possible.

But why do you want the GO away in the capital? If you don't want two big buildings in the capital, perhaps the HQ could be turned into some tiny building??

Your call. I just thought it a bit inefficient, that's all.

All effects currently given by the faction-specific HQs could be given to the GO as well. Well, with one exception. I heard that the city defense bonus given by Chichen Itza can never be removed by bombardment. Unlike city defense boni given by local buildings of course. So I figured for the Hive it would fit best if their defense bonus was given globally by the Headquarters building. Kinda hard to break underground bases by surface bombardment.

Okay, this means I need to relink the HQ art. Now I linked it to the main HQ xml entry because I couldn't see any differences between the faction HQ's. But if you indeed plan to give specific properties to some of the HQ...

Thanks! I have downloaded it but not yet tested in-game.
It looks awesome though on the screenies. And your screenshot includes University buildings I have never seen before. Are there others which haven't been shown on the screenshots in this thread yet?

Don't you have the GameBryo Scene Viewer installed? You can open niffiles with it when you put a copy of the boundshape file in the same location as a niffile. Together with the NifSkope viewer you have all the tools for doing some basic tinkering with art files.
As on testing, know that I linked the modern harbor art to the Naval Yard and a rusty wall from the FuryRoad mod to Perimeter Defense. Those still need to be tinkered with, especially the PD since it shows as red lines for some reason in Planetfall.

Btw, where did you get the satellite from??

Oh, that's the ISS model that can be found in the CFC database. I'm keeping more or les tabs of what's been uploaded for civ4. For you knowledge, there's also a "Rod's from God's" satellite model in it that could be used as a sort of Orbital Defense Satellite IF you ever found a XML/Python/SDK way to make it destroy certain base facilities like Solar Power Transmitters.

After linking art to the facilities for the University, I plan to link proper art to those farms/settlements and such in the PlotLSystem file. Once a faction is complete there's a base for copying all the stuff to other factions at will.

 

[woodelf]

Should I finish the expansion faction city sets that I started over a year ago?

And do you have a list of facilities? (I have your PM still Maniac so no need to reiterate those. )

I have a palace for Santiago started, do you need a 2nd HQ as well?

 

[Maniac]

Well, having open-spaced bases is what I remember from the last discussion with Rubin I participated in on this subject. If you're happy with it I'll just leave it as is and copy the xml for the other factions.

You mean have tiny buildings for all factions right?

Don't you have the GameBryo Scene Viewer installed?

GameBryo Scene Viewer? Never heard of it. Google doesn't mention anything. There's a certain "Asset Viewer" here, but I don't see a download link. I guess that's not it. Do you have a download link?

Oh, that's the ISS model that can be found in the CFC database.

I found the download link. It says it has some 4000 vertices. AFAIK that's four times the usual number. What's causing all that? Would merging those solar panels together reduce the count significantly??

there's also a "Rod's from God's" satellite model in it that could be used as a sort of Orbital Defense Satellite

Do you have a link to that? "Rod's from God's" didn't give me any search results.

After linking art to the facilities for the University, I plan to link proper art to those farms/settlements and such in the PlotLSystem file. Once a faction is complete there's a base for copying all the stuff to other factions at will.

W00 cool.

For the coming patch I've changed the "land worked" graphic to a futuristic woodelf improvement, but I assume it would be better to use one of the tiny faction graphics/domes as well for that. Would you want to do that?

I figured I'd add some questions to the end of this post.

1) Are the files under Art/cities in your download different/the same from the ones in the Art PAK file? In other words, can I safely exclude them from the patch?

2) In a distant past, to make the windmills use the modern instead of ancient graphics, you suggested simply copying the modern windmill graphics into the folder of the ancient windmill graphics. But I would of course like to avoid needlessly including files in the download, to keep the size down. So I'm wondering, do you know these days how to edit PlotL so that the windmill uses the modern windmill graphics without needing to include extra files in the mod? Also, the sea windmill currently uses the ancient windmill graphics, despite linking to the same artdefine as the land windmill.

3) GarretSidzaka says all necessary textures for the potential Morganic cityset are included. You say some are missing. This is a problematic difference of opinion of course. Can you say the textures of which buildings exactly are missing?

Should I finish the expansion faction city sets that I started over a year ago?

Would be cool! Which ones were you working on? I'd say Pirates would be most useful right now.

And do you have a list of facilities? (I have your PM still Maniac so no need to reiterate those. )

Do you mean a full list of all facilities in the game?

I guess the military facilities would be most important. Perimeter Defense, Naval Yard, Aerospace Complex... The trick is creating something which matches with an already existing faction style. Eg I know there's a fusion plant graphics out there, but it completely clashes with all faction graphics AFAIK.

I have a palace for Santiago started, do you need a 2nd HQ as well?

You said there already is one in the Spartan cityset you created. I guess I'd first need to have a look at that with that Gamebryo Scene Viewer.

 

[GeoModder]

All bases start with a faction-specific free building (Governor's Office) which gives some different benefits. But the faction effects are basically placeholders - not much thought has been put into them yet.

I'm afraid I will bugger you again on the Palace-->Governor's Office thing.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong but after a quick scan on what's possible on global parameters in the Civ4BuildingsInfos file, it seems to me that the HQ itself could cover all the things that a Governor Office's grants to its city.

If you want a Governor's Office just to show a first main facility in a new base, I frankly don't see the point. It would allow us to give the governor office's graphic to something else.

Was there any other specific reason why you want a main building in every base?


I'll respond to your latest post later.

 

[woodelf]

Do you mean a full list of all facilities in the game?

I guess the military facilities would be most important. Perimeter Defense, Naval Yard, Aerospace Complex... The trick is creating something which matches with an already existing faction style. Eg I know there's a fusion plant graphics out there, but it completely clashes with all faction graphics AFAIK.

Yeah. You want a building for each faction?!?!? That's a lot of buildings. Not impossible since you could make a generic building, throw in one piece of a city set that is unique and then use the cityset dds to make it blend in. Is that what you had in mind?

You said there already is one in the Spartan cityset you created. I guess I'd first need to have a look at that with that Gamebryo Scene Viewer.

Well I don't have any palaces done, but that building you sent a pic of is one of the styles I used in the city. I have a more elaborate one started. Two big ones of each style with the same texture won't be too difficult.

 

[Maniac]

Yeah. You want a building for each faction?!?!? That's a lot of buildings. Not impossible since you could make a generic building, throw in one piece of a city set that is unique and then use the cityset dds to make it blend in. Is that what you had in mind?

I don't really have anything particular in mind. I'm just wondering how to make building art fit in with a faction's style and colour scheme. Perhaps using different textures on the same model might work?


GeoModder, I tested your files in-game. The Solar Power Transmitter and University's Governor's Office show up as the Big Red Blob in Civilopedia. When building my capital, I didn't seem to see a HQ or GO. Any idea what could be the problem? I copied all the stuff to the right place AFAIK - it's not exactly difficult.

 

[GeoModder]

Well, there's clearly a missing xml link then. You have allowed to overwrite all the files, yes?
And it might be best to remove the graphics folders on your end which I rearranged stuff in, and put mine in their place. I've changed the xml to link to the "Buildings" folder, not to the "Cities" folder anymore. I bet that's the problem.

And check the Team forum thread for that viewer I mentioned.

 

[Maniac]

Your XML links to Art/Structures/Buildings while your download has an Art/Buildings. That must be the problem. I'll change the art path and see what happens. But it (and the patch) will have to be for tomorrow. I have to eat now.

 

[GeoModder]

Change the folder path, not the xml files!

 

[Maniac]

Though here's a file with extra eras added. I just named them the same as the artstyles.

Yep, will change the folder path to Art/Structures/Buildings.

 

[GeoModder]

You mean have tiny buildings for all factions right?

Yes, of course.

I found the download link. It says it has some 4000 vertices. AFAIK that's four times the usual number. What's causing all that? Would merging those solar panels together reduce the count significantly??

Consider it a placeholder until something better comes up. But yes, simplyfying the panels would help, though I think most of the polycount comes from the round habituation modules.

Do you have a link to that? "Rod's from God's" didn't give me any search results.

It's from asio³, so expect quality work.

For the coming patch I've changed the "land worked" graphic to a futuristic woodelf improvement, but I assume it would be better to use one of the tiny faction graphics/domes as well for that. Would you want to do that?

I'll try to change it with cityset buildings. I remember having problems changing this particular graphic in the past.

I figured I'd add some questions to the end of this post.

1) Are the files under Art/cities in your download different/the same from the ones in the Art PAK file? In other words, can I safely exclude them from the patch?

2) In a distant past, to make the windmills use the modern instead of ancient graphics, you suggested simply copying the modern windmill graphics into the folder of the ancient windmill graphics. But I would of course like to avoid needlessly including files in the download, to keep the size down. So I'm wondering, do you know these days how to edit PlotL so that the windmill uses the modern windmill graphics without needing to include extra files in the mod? Also, the sea windmill currently uses the ancient windmill graphics, despite linking to the same artdefine as the land windmill.

3) GarretSidzaka says all necessary textures for the potential Morganic cityset are included. You say some are missing. This is a problematic difference of opinion of course. Can you say the textures of which buildings exactly are missing?

1) The only graphic change I did was on the Uni governor graphic. I changed its position more towards center of the spot it uses in a city plot.
But I extracted the 4 facility buildings from the university cityset, and put them together with the HQ and the GO + Solar Power Transmitter and Perimeter Defense in a new folder structure, so I'm afraid you'll need to add the graphics folders I sent you.

2) I'll have a look at it once I'm busy in that file.

3) Perhaps I have an older version of it. In any case, if you decide to use this futuristic cityset we could use the NextWar graphics for some facilities.
Do I take it you don't want to use the existing Morganite cityset at all? Have a look at it first. Perhaps its usable for another faction?

Edit: nope, just checked. The one I meant has missing textures. Infact, before this cityset can be used, all the pink buildings' (see sceneviewer) textures need to be assembled in a single texture file or included with the mod_eu texture file.

 

[GeoModder]

Btw, if you're interested in futuristic citysets, perhaps this one will be something to your liking. Personally, I think the texture needs to be redone (made lighter).

 

[woodelf]

Do you guys want futuristic even if it doesn't look SMACish?

 

[Maniac]

I'll try to change it with cityset buildings. I remember having problems changing this particular graphic in the past.

Yeah, the land worked graphic is still the ancient cottage, despite me changing the artdefine. The sea worked graphic has changed though.

1) The only graphic change I did was on the Uni governor graphic. I changed its position more towards center of the spot it uses in a city plot.
But I extracted the 4 facility buildings from the university cityset, and put them together with the HQ and the GO + Solar Power Transmitter and Perimeter Defense in a new folder structure, so I'm afraid you'll need to add the graphics folders I sent you.

Hmm, perhaps we're having a misunderstanding. I'm wondering if I need to include Art/Structures/Cities. Not wondering about Art/Structures/Buildings. I guess the files of the other factions don't need to be included. But which University files exactly have been changed in the Cities folder? They all have the same datestamp.

2) I'll have a look at it once I'm busy in that file.

Cool thanks!

Do I take it you don't want to use the existing Morganite cityset at all? Have a look at it first. Perhaps its usable for another faction?

Well considered by itself I think it's a good cityset. But it actually strikes me as a middle eastern cityset, not a Morganic cityset. It even has minarets. And the texture makes it so "cheery". Personally when I think of some corporate-based faction, I rather think of huge skyscrapers. And then I think GarretSidzaka's cityset fits better. Look at the Merchant Exchange secret project movie. I think the trick to get this futuristic look as in the Merchant Exchange movie or Blade Runner is combining/contrasting dark & black with bright lights.

Perhaps its usable for another faction?

AFAICS, the minaret doesn't really fit with any faction. Perhaps the Believers?
The dome could be used by the Angels.
The barracks-like building (four towers with some space inside) could be used by the Spartans.
All the other buildings could probably be used by many factions, as long as they get that faction's texture colours. Eg don't the Peacekeepers have a similar looking set of tiny buildings? They'd probably also fit for the Spartans. Perhaps the Angels, though I guess there archictecture might be more dome-like instead of rectangles.

Btw, if you're interested in futuristic citysets, perhaps this one will be something to your liking. Personally, I think the texture needs to be redone (made lighter).

The building models are of course good as skyscrapers. Though I don't really like the texture either. Though probably for a different reason. That blue makes it look so modern/contemporary to me. Personally I'd prefer a Merchant Exchange movie style.

Do you guys want futuristic even if it doesn't look SMACish?

Are you talking about anything particular? For some stuff there's the faction wallpapers to go on, but for others, eg the Aerospace Complex, there's no source material at all, so there's no other choice but to invent something ourselves.

Btw, woodelf, do you have the wallpapers of all the factions' bases?

 

[Maniac]

Woops missed this.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong but after a quick scan on what's possible on global parameters in the Civ4BuildingsInfos file, it seems to me that the HQ itself could cover all the things that a Governor Office's grants to its city.

Nope, the current Morganic, Hive and University effects can't be provided globally.

If you want a Governor's Office just to show a first main facility in a new base, I frankly don't see the point. It would allow us to give the governor office's graphic to something else.

Was there any other specific reason why you want a main building in every base?

Giving some factional effects. And they were added for the reason you mention: adding a main base graphic. I'm not married to that idea though. If you prefer not having them show up prominently, that's all finy by me.
But the building still does need to be present. Could they be given some tiny building graphic?

 

[GeoModder]

Yeah, the land worked graphic is still the ancient cottage, despite me changing the artdefine. The sea worked graphic has changed though.

Improvement graphics are sometimes hardcoded in the machine. I know it's possible to change the graphic by using the exact name, but it's not possible to use more then two landworked graphics in an era. Though I never tested for different artstyles in an era.
The seaworked graphic is appearantly more flexible. I know that from the seaworked set I included in Ethnic Citystyles. That one shouldn't present a problem.

Hmm, perhaps we're having a misunderstanding. I'm wondering if I need to include Art/Structures/Cities. Not wondering about Art/Structures/Buildings. I guess the files of the other factions don't need to be included. But which University files exactly have been changed in the Cities folder? They all have the same datestamp.

Just replace the folder. The reason I included the cities folder is because I removed both Uni facility graphics in it (GO and HQ). If you keep it as is, you increase the donwload volume.

Cool thanks!

On my end the modern windmill shows in the seas when constructed.
I was even surprised you managed to let kelp and windmills coesist on the same plot! At least, I assume that was intended? I never heard of anybody who achieved two improvements on the same plot. Unless you have a niffile hidden somewhere with kelp+windmill in it?
One thing though, when highlighting the plot with a kelp or a windmill on it for a seaformer job, it still says "will remove [insert existing improvement] of this plot".
OTOH, seabases don't show any city building on the plot itself, only a road. But when adjacent to a land plot, city buildings show up on the shore.

Well considered by itself I think it's a good cityset. But it actually strikes me as a middle eastern cityset, not a Morganic cityset. It even has minarets. And the texture makes it so "cheery". Personally when I think of some corporate-based faction, I rather think of huge skyscrapers. And then I think GarretSidzaka's cityset fits better. Look at the Merchant Exchange secret project movie. I think the trick to get this futuristic look as in the Merchant Exchange movie or Blade Runner is combining/contrasting dark & black with bright lights.

Personally, I wouldn't stare you blind on the movies. I mean, the Planetary Datalinks movie also showed terrestrial stuff.
But true, the only type of building I can remember is this spiring broad tower with a domelike top. And lots of expensive materials in its construction.
When taking the factions' agenda in account, I wouldn't be afraid of using some kind of "dump" architecture for the lowest class. Perhaps prefab stuff should be kept on this faction at all times?

Are you talking about anything particular? For some stuff there's the faction wallpapers to go on, but for others, eg the Aerospace Complex, there's no source material at all, so there's no other choice but to invent something ourselves.

The Aerospace Complex shouldn't be more then a square landing field, but with a very good scifi texture, perhaps like the Russian carrier model in the database. With this I can always put a faction city building or two on the field to depict that faction's uniqueness in support buildings if you want. I see this Complex in a 3x3 node, so mosttimes it will appear on the outskirts of bases.
Another facility that could be generic is the punishment sphere. I say deliver a screenshot of the 'faction destroyed' movie to Woodelf and let him work with that. I envision this as a 1x1 sized facility.
A few months ago somebody uploaded a fantasy sphere I liked, though with a lot of ornaments on it, that I liked but I can't find it back in the database.

 

[GeoModder]

Could they be given some tiny building graphic?

If the effect can't be given globally by the HQ, then that's that. I'm not against extra graphics in a base, only unnecessary facilities for the sake of facilities. But can't these effects be covered by a trait in some cases instead of a building? It's a start for the lack of traits in the mod at this stage.

Talking about facilities. Looking at the stats of the GeneJack Factory it striked me that its stats would be best served in a national 'project'. I mean, it looks to me a bit unbelievable that one base governor would be allowed to force citizens and drones in greater productivity, while in the next base all things stay normal. Oppression plays in my opinion more on the global level of a faction.
And, as a project, it saves on another graphic.
Same thing with stuff like the Human Genome Project, the Virtual World and others. As projects they don't need graphics, can't be rushed afaik, and can't be conquered too what makes sense in a way.

 

[woodelf]

Are you talking about anything particular? For some stuff there's the faction wallpapers to go on, but for others, eg the Aerospace Complex, there's no source material at all, so there's no other choice but to invent something ourselves.

I'm talking about the cities in this case. The other stuff will definitely be a challenge.

I think I have the wallpapers, but any links or pics are always welcome.

 

[Rubin]

I'm afraid I will bugger you again on the Palace-->Governor's Office thing.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong but after a quick scan on what's possible on global parameters in the Civ4BuildingsInfos file, it seems to me that the HQ itself could cover all the things that a Governor Office's grants to its city.

If you want a Governor's Office just to show a first main facility in a new base, I frankly don't see the point. It would allow us to give the governor office's graphic to something else.

Was there any other specific reason why you want a main building in every base?[...]

I believe the Governor's Office was introduced as part of the cityset visuals. That is, a purely aesthetic facility. The reason would most likely have been to have at least a single faction signifier building present in every base without worrying if the city layout happened to be very poor in some cases.

Changes to city representation (citysets, layouts, facility graphics, etc.) could render the signifier building graphics obsolete. Perhaps try doing some tests without the Governor's Office and see if the nodes chosen give a pleasing result.

Edit: GeoModder, perhaps have a look at post #599 in the dreaded (because it is so huge) citysets thread. Perhaps you are able to figure out the reasoning behind the current layouts.

 

[GeoModder]

From what I saw in that post, it sounds like it was considered a stopgap measure.

Spoiler :

woodelf, for now, the current cityset buildings provide decent material for HQ buildings as well as signifier buildings.

I've used the University for testing and the result is good. The graphics style is retained, which I deem more important than spectacular headquarters (the current University buildings are spectacular anyway).

In my test, I gave the University a unique palace. This is a straightforward solution and I don't mind several different palaces showing up in the Civilopedia. It makes sense. In addition to this, I gave the unique palace a "free building"... this accounts for the signifier building present in all University bases (as well as in the capitol). This is a slightly problematic solution because each base will have an extra building showing in the list of buildings and the building is only there to produce nicer looking base displays. Hence, it can be considered a hack. See post #579 for suggested uses of signifier buildings (local HQ).

Because of this graphics issue expanding into other areas (additional base facilities) I need some feedback from the rest of the development team.

In any case, if my proposal for a first prefab-style era is accepted, there's less chance of a visual displeasing base once its proper architecture is visible in the second era. Bigger population and in case of established bases several facilities.

Maniac, if you could tell me which faction-effects can't be covered faction-wide by a HQ, I would know what to look for. For instance, the 25% Hive defense is covered by the Chitchen Itza effect, while the 10% food -and hammers is covered by the granary -and forge effect.

Edit: ah yes, I see the 10% hammers isn't covered globally. But perhaps this could be covered by the <ProductionTraits/> tag? Or a trait on the leader? A "Hive" trait so to speak?