Civs and Graphics

[rocklikeafool]

Doin some playtestin for your mod, I saw the only leader with traits was Corazin Santiago. Be nice if those were there. Cuz, as it is, Spartans have a big advantage that everybody else lacks.

Also, no civ had any UUs. I think jus one per civ would be good. It could be somethin based off of the civ leader's traits.

I also noticed that the different units like gun, laser, cannon, etc. have the same graphics for the most part. It seemed to me that only the Hovercraft had different graphics. Idk bout you but I find that borin.

These are jus my thoughts. Please comment and add your own thoughts. Modders of Planetfall, please explain how these things are goin to work. Thanks.

 

[Maniac]

All bases start with a faction-specific free building (Governor's Office) which gives some different benefits. But the faction effects are basically placeholders - not much thought has been put into them yet.

Regarding unit graphics - we don't have anyone interested in taking a lead in creating unit graphics.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Ok. Bout graphics, if I knew how to do em, I would. But I don't.

 

[GeoModder]

This thread looks to be the closest thing to what I noticed.

I know there's cityset graphics outthere for the Morgans and the Spartans, but they don't appear ingame and a quick scan showed me no xml for them either. Were you aware of these or don't you want them to include for some reason?
Also, some of the citybuildings (the single models of the cityset nifs) which are used (gaians, university, UN,...) look too big for their nodes, in other words their scaling is too big. They jumble up with other buildings. The scale especially looks big in comparison with unit scaling because those seems to have been decreased in size.
Spacing the buildings out and creating empty plots of them has the effect that almost no unique faction buildings shows in a cityplot once a number of facilities have been constructed.

Is all (of some of) this intended, or is it something that is in the pipeline for fixing somewhere in the future? In case of the latter, I could give a try on the scaling/distribution of the cityset graphics.

 

[Maniac]

I know there's cityset graphics outthere for the Morgans and the Spartans, but they don't appear ingame and a quick scan showed me no xml for them either. Were you aware of these or don't you want them to include for some reason?

Those cityset graphics are in fact included in the Planetfall art files. Unfortunately there is/was no one around with the skills and interest to make them work for Planetfall.

Is all (of some of) this intended, or is it something that is in the pipeline for fixing somewhere in the future? In case of the latter, I could give a try on the scaling/distribution of the cityset graphics.

I don't understand at all how city graphics work. Those currently in the game have been put in by Rubin. Perhaps you can contact him to know more about the reasons why things look how they look now.

IIRC there's an issue where facilities take up space even though they have empty.nif defined as their graphic. I'm not sure if that's what you're referring to.

In any case, all help with city graphics is of course appreciated.

 

[Rubin]

This thread looks to be the closest thing to what I noticed.

I know there's cityset graphics outthere for the Morgans and the Spartans, but they don't appear ingame and a quick scan showed me no xml for them either. Were you aware of these or don't you want them to include for some reason?
Also, some of the citybuildings (the single models of the cityset nifs) which are used (gaians, university, UN,...) look too big for their nodes, in other words their scaling is too big. They jumble up with other buildings. The scale especially looks big in comparison with unit scaling because those seems to have been decreased in size.
Spacing the buildings out and creating empty plots of them has the effect that almost no unique faction buildings shows in a cityplot once a number of facilities have been constructed.

Is all (of some of) this intended, or is it something that is in the pipeline for fixing somewhere in the future? In case of the latter, I could give a try on the scaling/distribution of the cityset graphics.

The Morganites and the Spartans have deliberately been left out. It should be fairly easy to implement the xml, though (without any significant tweaking to the node choices).

The node scaling is intended, but may be a poor decision (there are almost no small (1x1/1x2/etc.) nodes). Building scaling can be, if I recall correctly, adjusted independently--and I agree that they may appear too big. I recall the choice of overlapping as a difficult one due to the reduced amount of buildings and increased node size, but I am not sure if simply scaling down the buildings would produce pleasing results.

The main issue with the default Civ4 city layout is the mass of tiny "houses". However, I believe the cityset .nifs can be used with the default layout.

Generally, the issues you raise are known and, for the most part, intended (if a choice between two evils counts). I believe different factions can have different layouts, hence if, for example, the Peacekeeper layout looks nice, you can keep it and just change those layouts that look awful (they are all using the same layout template with minor tweaks).

 

[Maniac]

The Morganites and the Spartans have deliberately been left out.

Woops. See, I told you my knowledge of the graphical matters is lacking...

I've always thought this might make a great cityset for the Morganites. Very Blade Runner-esque.

It uses a modified ground though. all_mod_lots. Is it possible to use more than one different city ground in the game?

 

[GeoModder]

I've always thought this might make a great cityset for the Morganites. Very Blade Runner-esque.

I know that file. Unfortunately, there's missing textures on the more futuristic buildings in it.

It uses a modified ground though. all_mod_lots. Is it possible to use more than one different city ground in the game?

If you work with era's, you can have different city grounds ingame by a bit of xml work. You don't even need to use a different cityset to achieve this.


Overall, the bigger scaled city buildings use more or less the slots usually taken by city facilities. It might be better to use some (the bigger ones) city buildings as a more or less unique city facility for the factions. You have the best of both worlds then: faction-specific facility art, and the small stuff can still be used as city fillers. It would solve part of the lack in facility art.

 

[Maniac]

I know that file. Unfortunately, there's missing textures on the more futuristic buildings in it.

Do those buildings have textures on the screenshot? Who knows GarretSidzaka forgot to put all the files in the zip, and he still has them lying around.

If you work with era's, you can have different city grounds ingame by a bit of xml work. You don't even need to use a different cityset to achieve this.

Awesome! I think it would be great to have a seperate era for each faction. Not only for base graphical reasons, but also for soundtrack: it would allow me to give a different opening song and base screen ambience to each faction.
Would you be willing to do that, make the LSystem files work with 12 eras for the factions (the SMAC/SMAX 14, minus the CyCon and Cult)?

Overall, the bigger scaled city buildings use more or less the slots usually taken by city facilities. It might be better to use some (the bigger ones) city buildings as a more or less unique city facility for the factions. You have the best of both worlds then: faction-specific facility art, and the small stuff can still be used as city fillers. It would solve part of the lack in facility art.

Ah yes, now you mention it, I think I suggested this myself in a distant past. I don't think anyone said it was impossible.
Every base already has a unique facility: a "Governor's Office", a different one for each faction. BUILDINGCLASS_FACTION in XML. So art can be tied to that.
Also AFAIK it's possible to have the same building have different art depending on the era. So I'm wondering, would it be possible to give all base facilities for which there is no special art, the same generic art, but have a different art for every faction/era?

 

[GeoModder]

Do those buildings have textures on the screenshot? Who knows GarretSidzaka forgot to put all the files in the zip, and he still has them lying around.

They have. You can ask him, but that file is quite old.

Awesome! I think it would be great to have a seperate era for each faction. Not only for base graphical reasons, but also for soundtrack: it would allow me to give a different opening song and base screen ambience to each faction.
Would you be willing to do that, make the LSystem files work with 12 eras for the factions (the SMAC/SMAX 14, minus the CyCon and Cult)?

I thing you have a little misunderstanding on how era's work.
It's entirely possible to have a unique artstyle for each civ/faction you put in the game. It's quite another thing to put unique sound on them. It might be possible, haven't checked that.
Era's are the different ages in civ4, and to those is the ground art linked in civ4. Artstyles dictate the outlook of the city buildings/facilities, in combination with era's. You could say that era's are global, and artstyles local in programming terms.

Okay, I can make the LSystem file so that 12 factions/civs have each a different outlook, as long as the graphics are there. I know of 6 or 7 cityset graphics. Do you have the 5-6 others hidden somewhere?

Ah yes, now you mention it, I think I suggested this myself in a distant past. I don't think anyone said it was impossible.
Every base already has a unique facility: a "Governor's Office", a different one for each faction. BUILDINGCLASS_FACTION in XML. So art can be tied to that.
Also AFAIK it's possible to have the same building have different art depending on the era. So I'm wondering, would it be possible to give all base facilities for which there is no special art, the same generic art, but have a different art for every faction/era?

Do I understand you correctly that you want for instance the recycling tanks facility (which is pretty generic in my book) have a different outlook for each faction/civ? Yes, that's easy as long as each faction has its own artstyle.
If you want facilities have a different outlook after certain techs are discovered, that's possible too, even in combination with artstyles. But you're talking about alot of graphics here. It's basically what I've done for the Ethnic Citystyles mod, and after over a year I still haven't found enough art to cover all possibilities for each artstyle -and era in the game.

Again, I think you're confusing artstyles with era's here. Best to give an example so I'm sure what you want/mean.

 

[Maniac]

I thing you have a little misunderstanding on how era's work.

No I don't.
It's possible to fire a python event right onGameStart which changes a civ's era to whatever you want. Thus each faction can have its own era.

But so it's possible to have the same building, eg the lighthouse, look different for each artstyle as well as for each era?? I didn't know that.

Regardless, for sound-related reasons it would be preferable for each faction to have its own era.

Okay, I can make the LSystem file so that 12 factions/civs have each a different outlook, as long as the graphics are there. I know of 6 or 7 cityset graphics. Do you have the 5-6 others hidden somewhere?

I assumed it was possible to define a new era in XML, even if no faction made use of it yet. Not the case?

Again, I think you're confusing artstyles with era's here. Best to give an example so I'm sure what you want/mean.

Within a faction each base facility could look the same: the recycling tanks, the command center, the recreation commons... all the same. So while the more variety the merrier of course if available, one generic building art per faction would suffice. Thus only 12 buildingarts would be required.

 

[GeoModder]

No I don't.
It's possible to fire a python event right onGameStart which changes a civ's era to whatever you want. Thus each faction can have its own era.

AFAIK, era's are linked refered to in the technology xml. Does that mean you have to create different techtrees for each faction?

But so it's possible to have the same building, eg the lighthouse, look different for each artstyle as well as for each era?? I didn't know that.

Regardless, for sound-related reasons it would be preferable for each faction to have its own era.

Well, since it's python, I assume that's best handled in your capable hands.

I assumed it was possible to define a new era in XML, even if no faction made use of it yet. Not the case?

Oh, it's of course possible. It's only hard a bit harder to check for errors since there's no art for it yet, unless I use a properly renamed cityset niffile.

Within a faction each base facility could look the same: the recycling tanks, the command center, the recreation commons... all the same. So while the more variety the merrier of course if available, one generic building art per faction would suffice. Thus only 12 buildingarts would be required.

Ah, now I understand. Whatever the facility within a faction, they use the same graphic file. Quite simple. It does defeat the purpose of graphics though. A player can't determine from simply looking at his bases which facilities are already constructed. Unless you plan to put different textures on all these facilities in a later stage to determine their purpose of course.

 

[Maniac]

AFAIK, era's are linked refered to in the technology xml. Does that mean you have to create different techtrees for each faction?

Nope. Don't worry. It's in my capable hands.

Well, since it's python, I assume that's best handled in your capable hands.

Unfortunately I can't do the LSystem.

Ah, now I understand. Whatever the facility within a faction, they use the same graphic file. Quite simple. It does defeat the purpose of graphics though. A player can't determine from simply looking at his bases which facilities are already constructed. Unless you plan to put different textures on all these facilities in a later stage to determine their purpose of course.

The purpose would be to avoid empty spaces currently created by using empty.nif for some facilities.
Besides, the concern is academical. As you said yourself in your previous post, there's no art available for all the base facilities anyway. And I have no idea how many of the SMAC facilities could be graphically represented in a unique way. For some base facilities (eg Perimeter Defenses, Aerospace Complex) it's important to see and distinguish them on the map. For the others, if graphics are available, sure let's use them, but if none are available, no disaster, there's the generic building art.

 

[GeoModder]

Okay, a status report:

The following screenshots are from the University faction with the HQ and the Governor's Office switched to proper graphics (as I found them in the cities folder).

Some stats:

I used the LINMAP method of depicting cities in the GlobalDefinesAlt.xml file, and halved the values I found in there. In conjunction, In the Civ4CityLSystem.xml file I linked 4 of the 9 references I made for leafnode 1x1 buildings to the empty .nif spot of the University_cityset.nif. For the rest I only used 2x1 and 1x2 sized leafnodes. The general idea is to reserve the 4 2x2 buildings as art for facilities.
First screenshot: size 1
Second screenshot: size 2
Third screenshot: size 20

O yes, and there are no facilities whatsoever except the Office and HQ, so normally you'll be seeing less city buildings in the last screenshot.

How does it look to you? Spaced out enough? Not too many buildings?

 

[Maniac]

I used the LINMAP method of depicting cities in the GlobalDefinesAlt.xml file, and halved the values I found in there. In conjunction, In the Civ4CityLSystem.xml file I linked 4 of the 9 references I made for leafnode 1x1 buildings to the empty .nif spot of the University_cityset.nif. For the rest I only used 2x1 and 1x2 sized leafnodes. The general idea is to reserve the 4 2x2 buildings as art for facilities.

Err... you lost me in the first sentence.

How does it look to you? Spaced out enough? Not too many buildings?

Well it looks great to me! I kinda like having lots of tiny buildings in a city. It gives the impression it is in fact an actual city, instead of just a couple of buildings placed together.

It doesn't look to me that there are more tiny buildings in that screenshot than there usually are in vanilla civ cities anyway. Or am I mistaken here?


I don't understand what you're doing, but is there anything I can do to in the non-LSystem XML to help you?

 

[GarretSidzaka]

teh texture are in there i just checked

 

[Agent327]

I agree with Maniac: looks fine!

 

[GeoModder]

Err... you lost me in the first sentence.

I'll explain to you next week in the chalet if you want to.

Well it looks great to me! I kinda like having lots of tiny buildings in a city. It gives the impression it is in fact an actual city, instead of just a couple of buildings placed together.

It doesn't look to me that there are more tiny buildings in that screenshot than there usually are in vanilla civ cities anyway. Or am I mistaken here?

Okay. I just didn't know how close you wanted to adhere to Rubin's view of showing bases.
There should be less tiny buildings visible then usual in Civ4. To me it looks that way.

I don't understand what you're doing, but is there anything I can do to in the non-LSystem XML to help you?

You could prepare the ErasInfos.xml for 12 factions, and tell me if you just add new ones above (renamed) existing ones or replace the whole thing with new era's.
O yes, a question about the HQ. Are its properties faction-specific too, or will it give the same things to all factions?

 

[GeoModder]

On the topic of Era's: if you created 25 era's, I could swing it that all factions start with the same prefab kind-of-style cityset (think the prefab hutches the fieldlabs are now using). After say the first tier of techs, the faction-specific citysets start to appear in a second era (this is where the first batch of 12 era's after the first comes for) and finally after another tier of techs the final 12 era's show each faction in their full glory (provided they all *have* a cityset of course ).

Another thing: I have now for the University faction linked most facilities I could find in the first part of the CIV4ArtDefines_Building.xml file to one of the four graphic models I reserved for facilities. Problem is, in the civipedia of the mod I can see there are quite a bit more facilities not refered to, and those are a bit hidden in the ordinary civ4 facilities. Could you delete all the entries in that file which are not necessary? Would help me to see what's in the mod and what's not. I'm particularly doubtfull about facilities with similar names like the factory and hydro plant. And while I'm at it, any reason why a HQ and Governor's Office should be together in the first base? I've seen you created seperate entries for the HQ for each faction, so I reckon it should be possible to give each HQ the same properties as each faction GO and python the GO away from a base which contains a HQ.

Okay, attached is the altered files (graphic and xml) I worked with, and a screenshot showing you a bit of what I've done. You can do a simple drag and drop on the folder into a test version of the mod on your computer. Allow overwriting when asked. I also included the unaltered xml files just in case you want a backup.

Let me know when you downloaded the .rar file, I'll remove it from my attachment space then.

 

[Maniac]

Some quick comments. More later.

Okay. I just didn't know how close you wanted to adhere to Rubin's view of showing bases.

I'm not really sure what Rubin's view on bases is, that is if the absence of tiny buildings is intentional or not.
For instance here he says "I could not avoid to change the models to include empty space, because otherwise the Peacekeeper texture would mess with the University texture (I fixed a few domes as well)." Does the need for "empty space" for some reason have to do with the absence of tiny buildings? I haven't got a clue. As usual, I don't have a clue what people are talking about when discussing citysets.

You could prepare the ErasInfos.xml for 12 factions, and tell me if you just add new ones above (renamed) existing ones or replace the whole thing with new era's.

I'll release a new patch today or tomorrow.
I figured I'd just add new eras. I assume removing all references to the old ones would be more work than just leaving them in place. Or am I wrong in this regard? In any case, the "ancient" era definitely needs to stay as that's where all techs belong to.

On the topic of Era's: if you created 25 era's, I could swing it that all factions start with the same prefab kind-of-style cityset (think the prefab hutches the fieldlabs are now using). After say the first tier of techs, the faction-specific citysets start to appear in a second era (this is where the first batch of 12 era's after the first comes for) and finally after another tier of techs the final 12 era's show each faction in their full glory (provided they all *have* a cityset of course ).

Hmm, that could be definitely cool. I always found it a little ridiculous for instance the first thing the Peacekeepers built after Planetfall was a Taj Mahal lookalike. Talk about white elephant projects... I guess the Greenhouse nif could also be used for early city looks.Anything else?
Plus I was thinking of making two eras for technology anyway. That way the player could start a game with the Pirates and Angels in the second era. Though I'm not sure how yet if that could work. Link for background reference.

I'm not sure how a second set of twelve eras would work though. Is there enough art for this?? Besides, as the game progresses and bases become bigger, I guess bases become more impressive looking automatically anyway.

Another thing: I have now for the University faction linked most facilities I could find in the first part of the CIV4ArtDefines_Building.xml file to one of the four graphic models I reserved for facilities. Problem is, in the civipedia of the mod I can see there are quite a bit more facilities not refered to, and those are a bit hidden in the ordinary civ4 facilities. Could you delete all the entries in that file which are not necessary? Would help me to see what's in the mod and what's not. I'm particularly doubtfull about facilities with similar names like the factory and hydro plant.

I had a look. The only base facilities which are definitely not needed and I should remove are the "Nerve Staplers" and the Soil Enricher". Probably the "Biosphere" as well, though I might still use that name. There are a whole bunch of other unused base facilities in the XML files. They have as their tech prereq TECH_NEVER. Those I *might* use after a tech tree review, but I'm not entirely sure yet.

It's the nature of modding however that content gets added, balanced or remove all the time, including some facilities (though the ones you already put in LSystem are an assured value of course). Therefore an LSystem which doesn't require me calling on you every time I add a base facility would be preferable of course.

So I'm wondering, if I add a new facility, can I just eg use LSYSTEM_CRECHE for that facility as well, and will that work correctly?
The way you added building LSystems to the file kinda looks understandable to me in fact. Who knows, mimicking what you've done, who knows I might be able to add a new facility to the LSystem file myself.

And while I'm at it, any reason why a HQ and Governor's Office should be together in the first base? I've seen you created seperate entries for the HQ for each faction, so I reckon it should be possible to give each HQ the same properties as each faction GO and python the GO away from a base which contains a HQ.

It's the HQ which adds the GO to all bases as a free building, including the capital. Trying to do the same thing in python, I'd probably have to account for all kinds of special situations like bases being captured, the GO being able to be destroyed by spy missions etc. I'd like to avoid that if possible.

But why do you want the GO away in the capital? If you don't want two big buildings in the capital, perhaps the HQ could be turned into some tiny building??

O yes, a question about the HQ. Are its properties faction-specific too, or will it give the same things to all factions?

All effects currently given by the faction-specific HQs could be given to the GO as well. Well, with one exception. I heard that the city defense bonus given by Chichen Itza can never be removed by bombardment. Unlike city defense boni given by local buildings of course. So I figured for the Hive it would fit best if their defense bonus was given globally by the Headquarters building. Kinda hard to break underground bases by surface bombardment.

Okay, attached is the altered files (graphic and xml) I worked with, and a screenshot showing you a bit of what I've done. You can do a simple drag and drop on the folder into a test version of the mod on your computer. Allow overwriting when asked. I also included the unaltered xml files just in case you want a backup.

Thanks! I have downloaded it but not yet tested in-game.
It looks awesome though on the screenies. And your screenshot includes University buildings I have never seen before. Are there others which haven't been shown on the screenshots in this thread yet?

Btw, where did you get the satellite from??