Classic 34: First Spoiler (end of ancient age)

[klarius]

@SirPleb
I learned a lot over the last few months reading your spoilers.
One point I don't understand in this one, is the research of BW and early building of IMPI.
BW is also a tech that can easily be traded. Even on regent the others will research it fast, if they don't have it.
And the risk to trigger the golden age early seems not worth it.
Though one might argue the risk isn't very high, note I was attacked by Carthage in 1950BC w/o provocation (which was lucky BTW, because my 2 archers could handle it and I got some good towns out of it).

 

[SirPleb]

One point I don't understand in this one, is the research of BW and early building of IMPI.
BW is also a tech that can easily be traded. Even on regent the others will research it fast, if they don't have it.
And the risk to trigger the golden age early seems not worth it.
Though one might argue the risk isn't very high, note I was attacked by Carthage in 1950BC w/o provocation (which was lucky BTW, because my 2 archers could handle it and I got some good towns out of it).

The key thing about this is that the Predator class wasn't expansionist this month. If I could build scouts and pop huts without fear I definitely would not have researched BW nor built early Impis. Without scouts as an option, a two-move Impi is much better for exploring than a 1-move Warrior. It can travel a lot further in the same time and is at almost no risk if it pops barbarians from a goody hut. So I wanted Impis asap as explorers. And since I'd be using them, I didn't want to start by building any warriors - it seemed to me that any shields I invested in warriors would in the long run be wasted shields.

There is some risk of triggering an unwanted early GA with this approach. But I think the risk is small, and if it happens the problem isn't really all that big. I've had GAs in despotism in the past and they aren't really all that bad. Ideally I'd rather have the GA in a better government and when my population is a bit larger. But an early production boost counts for a lot more, per shield, than a later one - everything gained early in the game is multiplied by time. It isn't a terribly bad thing and I don't mind chancing it. Once I even did it on purpose

 

[klarius]

There is some risk of triggering an unwanted early GA with this approach. But I think the risk is small, and if it happens the problem isn't really all that big. I've had GAs in despotism in the past and they aren't really all that bad. Ideally I'd rather have the GA in a better government and when my population is a bit larger. But an early production boost counts for a lot more, per shield, than a later one - everything gained early in the game is multiplied by time. It isn't a terribly bad thing and I don't mind chancing it. Once I even did it on purpose

Just for fun I tried, if I would have gotten a lost GA. I have autosaves available due to Dianthus' great utilities.
I did go to 2030BC and made two rapid Impis out of granary builds. Then I continued normally to settle the town in the south, but have it defended by an impi, instead of an archer.
Still Carthage attacked in 1910BC (at very bad chance with a warrior against a fortified impi in a hills town).
And so I would have gotten a 4 town despotic golden age, with maybe half the laborers on tiles with no profit in despotism.
Sure SirPleb's situation was different. There wouldn't even be an impi nearby, still I don't like the risk.
And BTW I had this case really in a random Zulu game (on emperor level), where two civs sent 3-warrior stacks within 3 turns and an impi was the only chance to defend.
But maybe it's just me, who attracts so much early trouble

 

[SirPleb]

Still Carthage attacked in 1910BC (at very bad chance with a warrior against a fortified impi in a hills town).
...
But maybe it's just me, who attracts so much early trouble

It does seem rather odd. I very rarely see an AI attack while there's still expansion room unless it has an opportunity to take an undefended town. I wonder if this is just random. Hard to guess.

 

[klarius]

It does seem rather odd. I very rarely see an AI attack while there's still expansion room unless it has an opportunity to take an undefended town. I wonder if this is just random. Hard to guess.

I think it's random, but also has to do with being military extremely week. In this case I probably had only one warrior when Hannibal decided to attack (probably 6-7 turns before). And in my experience, when the AI has decided to attack it doesn't deviate from this course, no matter what is done in between.
I had this case of early attack several times in my favorite quick game, tiny pangea emperor. In most cases it was explainable by the secret knowledge of the AI that I blocked an important resource (like in the Zulu game I mentioned, the capital sat on the nearest iron for both Hammurabi and Xerxes, but nobody knew IW by that time), but sometimes it happens just so.

 

[klarius]

I did look a little more into this early attack of Carthage.
I could go back to an earlier save and watch Carthage (with a scout) pop-rush (!) a NM in 2310 and the warrior stack leaving at 2270.
I then went back to 2510 and did things different like different trades, building an embassy, also trying to have an impi in 2470 instead of a barracks. Nothing made a change. Still the stack left immediately after the NM completed.
So it looks like the decision to attack was already taken earlier.
Maybe it's just risky to contact other civs with scouts, while one has no military at all.

EDIT:
And BTW, Hannibal was clearly cheating.
He never had a warrior scouting in my direction, still his stack bee-lined into my land.

 

[mad-bax]

I thought I would give this game a shot.

I played the PTW Predator save just for the hell of it.

so for this game I thought I would go for conquest, since I have never played a game with respawn on (maybe an old tournament game where we started in the modern age? - Can't remember).

I can't pretend I played this well, and I didn't keep screenshots or good notes, but briefly this is how it went.

I settled on the spot and sent my first warrior West. He found the Persians within 10 turns, declaring war and capturing a worker immediately.

From there I built settlers, barracks and archers almost exclusively until I hit republic.

Wars

3250BCish Persia. They finally died around 1500BC, after respawning twice (so I killed them 3 times). I didn't know that a civ gets 100g when it respawns. You can make a lot of money that way

1850BCish Carthage. The Numidians were difficult. I lost a lot of Archers taking them out, and still haven't BTW since they respawned to a place I can't be bothered to go yet. So I made peace with them around 1000BC, by which time I had 14 cities, 8 with barracks.

400BCish Egypt. They were expading like crazy. I delayed declaring on them so I could build more settlers and a few markets.Basically I could expand quicker by settling than war. This war has dragged on, mainly because I am not trying very hard to kill them. But now I am a republic I guess I should get on with it.

Leaders.
I got 2 leaders in the AA. The first built the Pyramids, and the second built the FP to the East.
I actually pre-built the Pyramids in my third city, so this has now been switched to a Palace pre-build for a middle age wonder.

Luxuries.
I have wines, incense and dyes hooked up. Dyes were the last, around 500BC, just in time for the market pre-builds.

GA. I triggered the GA with one of the 4 impi I built a few turns after becoming a republic, with the iron and horses hooked up. I am about 10 turns into the GA now.

Suicide Galleys.
I've lost 6 so far, and have not made contact with any other civs. I've given up now and will wait for navigation.

Goody Huts
I found 3 huts rather quickly. I got maps, 25g and barbs in that order.

Overall I have tried to balance settler, worker and unit production. I have not built libraries or temples, and I do not intend to research past navigation. My expansion is not nearly as impressive as some that have posted, but I'm willing to bet I have more workers at this stage of the game than these players. Hopefully the production boost from pyramids and "fast enough" terrain improvement will allow faster conquest of the other landmasses. I am not at all concerned with score for this game. Just in how quickly I can finish it.

My biggest mistake was te pyramid pre-build. I know better than this, but because I was forced into an archer rush I was not confident I could have generated a leader quickly enough. It's easy to give the regent AI too much respect I guess.

 

[Offa]

@ mad-bax: great start. I thought I was aggresive early on but I was a peace loving hippy next to you. No wonder you wanted that xenophobic variant in sgotm.

Why didn't you let the Persians live to help your research?

 

[mad-bax]

Yes I had a 1 in three chance that they would get Mono as their free tech, which would have been the only useful one since I don't intend researching the bottom tier and I didn't want them to get and trade Feudalism, since I didn't want to face pikes. So I traded half a dozen turns to Navigation for peace of mind really. Those half a dozen turns will just mean more boats and more knights for when I start clearing the other landmasses - if I ever find them. I thnk this train of thought is probably flawed, but it's what I did. As I said, once I get Nav I'm done researching in this game. I'll just be short rushing knights and boats. I don't need any more workers I don't think.

I'm not doing that well really. I've lost a lot of units, and the Egyptians snuck into a town and cut my dyes for 6 turns. This is a coffee break game for me - and I'm testing ainwoods new utility too so I haven't even bothered with RCP or MMing.

This is the first game I've played I think where I haven't built a single granary, well - except the Pyramids that is.

 

[klarius]

@mad-bax
Well, pikes (as well as immortals) need iron.
So if you had found a nice isolated tundra home for the persians, there wouldn't be a threat even if they get feudalism. In that case you could have gifted them even before you start MA research.
Engineering is not worthless, even if you don't want to research the bottom path.
It adds the river crossing ability to speed up movements.

 

[Dynamic]

This GOTM is Regent Level and it sign the AI aren’t powerful and clever. Starting point hasn’t food bonus under Despotism. But Predators haven’t scout in this game and I decided to settle on the spot. Worker mined both wines.

I built 3 Warriors then Granary. 1-st Warrior go to S,SE, 2-nd move W,NW, 3-d check discovered by 2-nd Warrior goody hut: nothing. I missed Egypt because my 1-st Warrior met Carthage and 2-d Persia and I decided to try attacking them. Both of them have warrior defender. My first target was Persepolis and I took it. Before attacking Carthage I saw 2-nd goody hut on the mountain near and open it. 3 angrier warriors attacked me and my warrior was promoted to elite. I moved it to Carthage and Yes! I took the city and got Leader!

I rush Pyramids in Carthage and made peace with reloaded civs for 100g from each. Farther I built settlers and fill my nearest lands. Carthage and Persia respown near me. I gave them many of my knowledges and buy from Persia Monoteism at the begin of MA.

I Discovered Republic in 1125BC and switch to it in 1000BC. MA began in 630BC.

1000bc I had 16 towns
1 granary (+Pyramids), 2 temples, 1 barrack
13 workers and 5 slaves
16 warriors + 1 horseman
4+2 techs from MA

 

[mad-bax]

@mad-bax
Well, pikes (as well as immortals) need iron.
So if you had found a nice isolated tundra home for the persians, there wouldn't be a threat even if they get feudalism.

Yes, you are probably right. I was not concerned about Persia with Pikes. I was concerned about Egypt. They were surprisingly strong and rich, and had the great library. If I took feudalism from Persia, then Egypt would get it for free. They had iron, or rather, they have iron in terms of this spoiler.

As for engineering - well yes the extra movement would be nice, but I'm playing around here. I want to see what happens if I only research the absolute minimum number of techs and limit builds to settlers, workers, military and a few markets. The only culture I have is from the palace, the FP and the Pyramids. It's an education - or would be if I had any libraries.

 

[Megalou]

PREDATOR

As a compromise, I decided to keep playing one of the "games of the fortnight". It turned out to be the classic GOTM. That's because I had to give away a disc to be able to stop one of them. Had I given away the PTW disc, I would still be able to play both... Besides, the recipient was happier to get C3C.

I chose predator as a principle, even though the handicap was the worse one since the no-worker-GOTM. I can understand why the handicap stinks, because unlike increased AI support this is a "true" handicap on regent level, but I don't like it one bit.

Realizing I would have a slim chance of a quick militaristic victory compared to others, I chose research, but unfortunately I was a bit undecided in the beginning and so did a 40-turn research of Republic, IIRC. I was very late in starting to wage war, but when the Egyptians declared at the end of my anarchy period I triggered a GA and took them out very quickly with horsemen. The Carthaginians shared their fate via an ROP rape. But I saved the Perisans for a good while.

Hand-built FP and Pyramids. Hurried Great Lighthouse and made one rather stupid MI-army. At least it got me the Heroic Epic.

 

[civ_steve]

1.27f

Of course I got a late start on GOTM34, so I'm trying to win as quick as possible. Keeping it simple.

I moved the Settler one space West (basic grassland) and settled Zimbabwe. Since I was now a Militaristic civ who knows Pottery, I decided to play pretty aggressively. I built 3 Warriors and sent them out, quickly meeting the Persians and a bit later the Carthaginians. Research path was Wheel at Maximum, and if I was able to trade for BronzeWrk, next would be IronWrk, giving me quick knowledge of both resource locations. Once I learned the Wheel, that and Pottery got me BronzeWorking from Persia; Pottery and Wheel also got me Alphabet from Carthage, which I then traded to Persia for Masonry and I was even up. A bit later my far-ranging scouting Warriors contacted Egypt, and I could trade for Ceremonial Burial. After IronWorking, I researched up the Mysticism/Polytheism/Monarchy path to give me a shot at a non-Despotism GA.

Once I knew where Iron and Horses where, I decided that the lands to the SouthEast looked very nice. Settler factory possibility where the River/Cows were, with lots of BG's nearby. After forming a 2nd city, Zimbabwe built a Barracks, and started making Veteran Warriors between Settlers. Ulundi also built a Barracks; pretty soon Veteran Archers were being trained. I decided on harassing Carthage, and left Warriors hanging around on Mountains to see what Hannibal was up to. I converge on a Carthage Settler/Warrior stack, and the first War is started gaining me two slave workers. Fairly soon I sign a peace treaty, put some archers in place, and jump the next Settler (escorted by NumMerc), gaining two more slave Workers and a very bad reputation. I will do worse.

So as Carthage is being suppressed, I develop to the SouthWest. Hlobane is founded on the river adjacent to the Cattle, and starts on a Granary. An Archer stack is sent against Carthage itself; Carthage is captured. Not to worry, the Carthaginians respawn, gaining 100 Gold and a Settler it seems; a 2nd city was formed very soon after. I play a waiting game - waiting 10 turns until their new Palace expands before taking it; same for city #2 and finally Carthage is no more (and I have two more cities and more free Workers!)

I saved my 1000BC status which was well before this stage; it was nothing exceptional: 5 or 6 cities, and bunches of Archers and Warriors.

I also send a bunch of Archers against Persia in round 1 of the Zulu-Persian conflicts, taking 2 cities and razing a 3rd before signing a peace treaty. Persepolis is building the Pyramids; I toy with the idea of establishing embassy, signing ROP, sending Workers to connect his Iron for him, helping him generate a GA, just so he might finish the Pyramids for me , but a far-off civ completes them before I can completely plan out this operation. I beat everyone to Monarchy and am crowned King in 490BC; slightly before this time I abandon Zimbabwe sending my Palace to Hlobane and more fertile grounds.

The Veterans from the Carthage campaigns now declare on Egypt, and I basically take any Egyptian cities that are outside of the Egyptian peninsula proper before signing peace. (Edit: I kicked off my GA in 390 BC, as a Monarchy, by attacking a red-lined Archer with an Impi; I use the GA to build up my forces, some Horsemen and lots of Warriors, and I saved Gold for upgrades) Egypt has built the Colossus and Great Lighthouse, and I plan to have both before the AA is over.

I manage to get Philosophy and Map-making through Peace treaties; I research Mathematics and trade for Code-of-Laws; the AA is coming close to ending. I start research on Currency. In 70AD a suicide Galley makes contact with a far-off civ, and I'm able to trade for Literature, all contacts and WM's. I learn Currency and have it uniquely; some far-off civs gain Republic, but I hold off any trades to see if I can trade for Construction. I do minimum on Construction and start saving money for "future purposes". (I'm also building a large Galley fleet, to support "underwater research", yeah, that's the ticket!) I reengage the Persians with Swords, taking their large cities and forcing their Palace to smaller cities which I take later after population increase or Culture expansion. I take Persia down to one city, and leave a stack of several Swordsmen there. I reengage the Egyptians, taking their Wonders, and their last city; they respawn in the far North, and I start heading that way.

Let's see; finished the Forbidden Palace in 420 AD. Jumped Palace a 2nd time in 430 AD to Ibanago (on the isthmus near former Egypt); my GPT goes from 75 to 115.

The AI gave me no cooperation on learning Construction. They decided to learn the cheaper Currency first! So I had no trade power. Once I had around 1600 Gold, I started research on Construction in earnest; with 2 turns to go the AI finally learns it. I trade with one far-off AI who didn't have Currency yet; then I sign peace with Egypt gaining Republic in exchange. I sign peace with Persia, giving him Currency and Construction. Xerxes gets Feudalism as his free Tech (I'd prefered he got Monotheism). I'm able to trade Republic and 650 Gold for Feudalism, then promptly attack him getting my 650 Gold back. (He Respawns even further North!)

This is in 460 AD; so I have absolutely no reputation at all (except very bad), but I have Feudalism (only Persia also knows Feudalism), researching Mono in 9 turns or so, 1600 Gold in the bank, only 3 weak AI cities on my continent and here is my F3 screenshot. Planning a mass Horse upgrade; transport over to 2nd continent, and show the far-off civs who's in charge.

Not having scouts or the better hut capability had a minor effect. I still sent a warrior all around the North so I have complete Map knowledge; and building Warriors from the start sent me on my aggressive path just that much earlier.

 

[Randy]

@mad-bax
Well, pikes (as well as immortals) need iron.
So if you had found a nice isolated tundra home for the persians, there wouldn't be a threat even if they get feudalism. In that case you could have gifted them even before you start MA research.
Engineering is not worthless, even if you don't want to research the bottom path.
It adds the river crossing ability to speed up movements.

I made the same mistake (as you pointed out) so I took your advice in COTM04, it works great. I didn't get any new techs (the AI got the ones I allready had) but I think this will help alot will all my games, Thank klarius!

 

[DJMGator13]

As is becoming too common Civ_Steve and my post are occurring fairly close to each other, must have something to do with the late starts we are both getting. I’m hoping to get this wrapped up before the next hurricane hits me.


QSC Summary

Cities
Zimbabwe - 3950BC
Ulundi - 3300BC popped from GH
Bapedi - 2190BC
Hlobane - 2070BC
Theveste - captured 1425BC
autorazed Utica in 1225BC
Isandhlwana - 1200BC
Carthage - captured 1125BC
Hippo - sued for in 1125BC
Leptis Minor - sued for in 1125BC

Total city size is 21
Control 112 tiles

Techs
POT - 4000BC started with
WC - 4000BC started with
ALPH - 3650BC trade
CB - 3550BC from GH
MAS - 3450BC trade
BW - 3300BC trade
MYST - 3050BC from GH
IW - 3000BC from GH
WHEEL - 2590BC researched
HBR - 2230BC from GH
WRIT - 2190BC trade
POLY - 1275BC researched
MAPM - 1125BC sued for
PHIL in 3 turns

Military
22 units
1 settler, 2 workers, 3 scouts, 2 warriors, 2 archers, 7 swords & 4 impis
3 captured workers
lost 2 swords in battle

Rest of AA
925BC learn PHIL & found INTOMBE
850BC TRADE: Poly & Writ to EGY for MATH
710BC found MPONDO
690BC learn CoL / suicide galley survives and spies purple border - need to last 1 more turn for contact
670BC galley sank before contact
350BC issue DOW on EGY
330BC capture Memphis (EGY)
310BC capture Pi-Ramesses (EGY) & Giza (EGY)
210BC learn REPUBLIC - revolt draw 4 turn / capture Thebes (EGY) with Pyramids & 3 workers
150BC become a Republic / capture Elephantine (EGY)
110BC capture Heliopolis (EGY) & generate first Great Leader - use to rush Great Lighthouse (want to find the other civs)
90BC generate 2nd Great Leader used to rush FP
30BC capture Alexandria (EGY) leaving EGY with 4 cities 3 of which are size 1, so I sue for peace gaining CONST, Hieraconpolis & El-Amarna
10AD learn CURR and enter Middle Ages

I have 20 cities, EGY has 2 cities (a size1 & a size 2) and CART 4 cities (2 size 1 & 2 size 2). PER has 11 cities (a size 5, 3 size 2 and the rest are size1) and is my next target. Since I am a republic I may wait until I have knights to declare war and try to roll over them quickly.

 

[Karasu]

@ mad-bax: great start. I thought I was aggresive early on but I was a peace loving hippy next to you.

This is why I love reading spoilers! You can find the wisest and the funniest bundled together...

I managed to rush through this game as I got back from my holidays. Hope I can put together a decent recap of my 20k game -will post it all together in the final spoiler anyway.

 

[Ronald]

OPEN

This month I am planning to try to get my final missing award: The cow
I have not milked a game in the last 2 years, so it will be interesting how my milking skills compare to other people.

In the beginning, the ancient age, a milked game does not differ from a domination game, so warfare it is. The game settings, regent level and a start with not much food but lots of shields asks for an early archer rush. So my strategy was: build some scouts to find the AI, build a barrack and then lots of archers, when the city grows to 6 build a settler.

What to do with the archers: I don't want to raze AI cities, I want to convert them to my city base. So I am going for the capitol which has already produced some culture so it will not be autorazed. Take the capitol, make peace if possible for another city, move the archers to the next capitol, wait untill the borders expand and repeat the same strategy.

It worked very well, I reached Carthago before they had their nasty mercenaries, but later I had to wait for swordsmen to take cities from Carthago. Persia and Egypt only have spearmen, so my archers did their job.

My warfare during the ancient age gave me two GL's. I used the first to build pyramids to grow my empire as fast as possible, the second to build the FP in former Carthago territory.

Here are some pictures of my progress during the ancient age:

in 490 BC I advanced to the middle ages