ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
Seems alot of effort, I guess spiritual isn't as nerfed by BtS golden ages as some have claimed.
Cloak and Dagger: A Basic Guide to Espionage
- Thread starter MrCynical
- Start date
VirusMonster
Quechua General
I agree, spiritual got stronger due to diplomatic tricks through espionage in BTS. I guess it balances out that the first Golden Age now only costs a single GP.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
Well I do like playing as Egypt, i guess I should give the EE a try.
obsolete
Deity
I think that Cristo Redentor in BtS nerts spiritual pretty bad. Sucks to have 2 traits while someone else gets 3.
I could understand if there were other wonders, like one to bring financial benefits, etc.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
Spiritual gets to build Christo for half price though, so it is a denial tactic I spose.
With the patch Cristo Redento is like Spiritual on steroids. It allows you to change any civics and religions once every turn instead of the usual 5 turn delay. An experienced Spiritual player who already has his economy and war production set up to use the various civic switching tricks gains significantly from being able to do that. The fact that it does the same thing as what a Spiritual a LOT better is an advantage for the trait in my view, rather than weakening it. I always try to get possession of the wonder if Spiritual just as strongly as if not.
And combining the Cristo Redento with spies and a powerful espionage advantage to produce disruptive civic and religous changes every few turns is borderline cheating
. The more powerful the opponent the more effective the disruption. Civic changes have a fixed cost when they should be much more expensive and proportional to the size of the empire affected. The unfortunate thing 
is the starvation and unhappiness a vigorous spy campaign can produce causes the AI to respond in particularly stupid ways. I have witnessed the AI automated workers turning villages that were nearly towns into farms, then a few turns later into workshops and back to cottages.
And combining the Cristo Redento with spies and a powerful espionage advantage to produce disruptive civic and religous changes every few turns is borderline cheating
. The more powerful the opponent the more effective the disruption. Civic changes have a fixed cost when they should be much more expensive and proportional to the size of the empire affected. The unfortunate thing is the starvation and unhappiness a vigorous spy campaign can produce causes the AI to respond in particularly stupid ways. I have witnessed the AI automated workers turning villages that were nearly towns into farms, then a few turns later into workshops and back to cottages.slaze
Deity
Not true......
VirusMonster
Quechua General
Modifiers are not the only way to increase your 
output. For large empire sizes, where Bureaucracy+Academy research composes only a minor portion of the total reserch, even without any modifiers, an espionage economy outperforms a manual research economy despite libraries and universities in all cities.
The average
to 
conversation rate for an EE is 2.08 from the article in my signature. With libraries and universities, a manual research economy conversion rate would be:
1.5 (library+univerisy bonus)*1.2(prerequisite bonus)*1.06(average bonus for other AI's already knowing this tech)=1.9
2.08>1.9 so EE without any modifier buildings would still outperform a library+university infrastructure.
Courthouse adds +2, well that is almost as good as 4 , assuming a 1 to 2 conversion ratio. Well 4 is almost as good as a free specialist.
The spy specialist also creates more effective beakers than a scientist. I know you can only assign a single spy specialist in the early game, but still, it outperforms a scientist with a library in terms of effective beaker generation.
output. For large empire sizes, where Bureaucracy+Academy research composes only a minor portion of the total reserch, even without any modifiers, an espionage economy outperforms a manual research economy despite libraries and universities in all cities.The average
to conversation rate for an EE is 2.08 from the article in my signature. With libraries and universities, a manual research economy conversion rate would be:1.5 (library+univerisy bonus)*1.2(prerequisite bonus)*1.06(average bonus for other AI's already knowing this tech)=1.9
2.08>1.9 so EE without any modifier buildings would still outperform a library+university infrastructure.
Courthouse adds +2
, well that is almost as good as 4 , assuming a 1 to 2 conversion ratio. Well 4 is almost as good as a free specialist.The spy specialist also creates more effective beakers than a scientist. I know you can only assign a single spy specialist in the early game, but still, it outperforms a scientist with a library in terms of effective beaker generation.
obsolete
Deity
You are penalized greatly here, because when YOU gain this wonder, you only get to switch a few turns quicker.
When your opponents gain this, not only do they get the exact same benefit, but they now get absolutely NO anarchy. You sir, have been nerfed in this spot.
I understand what you are saying, but even though something may give you a small advantage, if that same item can give your opponents a MUCH bigger advantage to them, then you are much better off without it in the game at all.
vanatteveldt
Emperor
Question: I just started on one of the lonely hearts isolated games, and got two great spies from the great wall... What happens with espionage points if you haven't met anyone??
VirusMonster
Quechua General
Good question. Points still add to your total espionage power even if they are not directed towards any enemy.
In your case, I would save the spies for future infiltration missions.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Exactly what VirusMonster said .... unless you need the 3 beakers from a settled GSpy, it is far better to store them for future use.
