CO-1. Emperor, Continents, Epic. Just win

[Methos]

We are not planning on winning by culture, but are just discussing what options we may or may not have. A culture victory option is looking less and less likely each turn.

Will play this tomorrow. Forgot today way my b-day.

 

[fbouthil]

I agree that cultural victory sounds very difficult in our situation. I re-read my previous post and it sounds like we were already committed into that victory condition. It was not my intention, sorry about that.

With the next cities having only 3 happiness, I am starting to dream about gems!

I guess we decided on a short-term strategy of settling a city next to the stone to build a wonder, but I really wonder what our long-term strategy will be as I never played a game when I started alone on a continent. In civ3, when I encountered a civ isolated on its continent, it was usually very backward.

 

[Bezhukov]

A coastal city using the clams and stone would be very viable, given all the forests nearby to get it up to speed quickly. There's another nice one further south with pigs and gems. Being financial, the value of coastal cities goes way up, as do rivers. The southwest should yield one or two nice spots too, though the lack of any resources there is bizarre. Any financial civ has a shot at a cultural win, if you can get the religions.

In the short term, though, military is the priority. The coastal city may need to wait until third, with the second going for copper. Popping archery was huge for you guys, you can use terrain to get a big boost, even vs barb axes.

 

[colony]

Damn, just our luck, we get one of the quickest teching AIs in the game (Mansa), when we have poor terrain and are isolated

Although with Izzy there it might be possible to get one or two religions spread to us. Diplomatic win could turn out to be the easiest option here, assuming we're not too backwards in tech when the other AIs turn up

 

[Methos]

... but I really wonder what our long-term strategy will be as I never played a game when I started alone on a continent.

In Meth01 we ended up on a continent all by ourselves. The main problem we had was all the barbs. It appeared in that game that barbs are very heavy when you are by yourself on a continent. I suggest we get some fog-busters parked on a hill as soon as possible.

Getting ready to play.

 

[Methos]

Turn 50 (2000 BC)
Methos: We're currently at both max happiness and health, so I'll put emphasis on production. Primarily troops to be used as fog busters.
Washington finishes: Archer

Turn 51 (1975 BC)
Washington begins: Archer
Methos: I switch the citizen off the forested plains and put him on the forested plains hills instead. We're still at +1 food but don't need to grow right now.

Turn 52 (1950 BC)
Methos: Odd, the barb warrior left. Than a barb archer appeared and left again. Must be a barb city near the western pigs.
Methos: Since there's three turns until another archer finishes, and no barbs in sight. The warrior heads out towards a hill to fight the fog.
Tech learned: Bronze Working

And we get this:

Turn 53 (1925 BC)
Research begun: Writing
Research begun: Animal Husbandry
Methos: No copper in sight and Iron Working will take too long, so I go with Animal Husbandry. With any luck we'll have horses nearby. I don't believe I've ever done this before, but I'm really worried about barb incursions since we're alone on our continent.
Methos: A barb archer appears from the south.

Turn 54 (1900 BC)
Washington finishes: Archer
Judaism founded in a distant land

Turn 55 (1875 BC)
Washington begins: Archer
Methos: I move the worker to a forest outside our borders to chop a barracks.
Washington begins: Warrior
Methos: Decide to build a quick warrior to use as a fog buster to our northeast. I'd rather not send a more expensive archer for that task.
Methos: This also lines our next archer up to finish after the barracks is chopped.

Turn 56 (1850 BC)
Washington finishes: Warrior

Turn 57 (1825 BC)
Washington begins: Archer
Methos: Two barb archers are in view, and both are near our warriors parked on hills.
Warrior loses to: Barbarian Archer (0.60/3)

Turn 58 (1800 BC)
Methos: Out southern fog busting warrior falls, though he came close. We need to get archers down there quickly, as the fog retook a lot of tiles.
Methos: That's a first, the hammers from the chop came immediately at the beginning of the turn. Usually I have time to switch the queue first. Oh well, we needed the archer anyway.
Washington finishes: Archer

Turn 59 (1775 BC)
Washington begins: Barracks

Turn 60 (1750 BC)

The fog busting warrior in the northeast may want to go to the hill just east of his current position. I’m not sure which hill tile would push the most fog back. Probably have to move him around a little.

We need to get archers out as our fog busters. These warriors just aren’t strong enough.

I realize we need to get cities up but a couple turn sets getting the fog pushed back is worth it more IMHO. In Meth01 several of us spent a couple turn sets doing nothing but fighting back the barbarian hordes. I went through at least two turn sets myself fighting them. That’s a lot of wasted turns.

Here are some good spots to plant archers for fog busting duty. The blue circles are where we currently have units. The yellow circles are where I believe we should place some. In case you can't tell, all duty spots are located on hills.

Roster:
Colony- On Deck
Mutax2003
Grogs
Methos- Just Played
Fbouthil- Up

 

[fbouthil]

Looking at the save, I see that we also have the mongolian as opponent. Looking at the financial advisor, I see that we have free unit cost for 7 units and free unit supply for 4 units and that is exactly what we have (7 units including 4 units outside our borders). Considering we only have 15 commerce, I am not sure it is wise to start paying unit cost and supply if we can avoid it. I will play tomorrow so you can comment on the following plan:

• To avoid unit cost and supply, build a settler after the barrack unless we lose some fog busters. More cities should increase our commerce and the number of free units so we can complete the fog busting without paying for it.
• Send the archer to the first hill suggested by Methos so the area of the future stone city is clear of barbs.
• I am tempted to research masonry after animal handling, but it sounded like animal handling was researched for military purpose so maybe I should research horseback riding or iron working depending if we have horses. What do you think?

 

[Methos]

Looking at the save, I see that we also have the mongolian as opponent.

Huh!?! How do you figure that? I never met the Mongolians and don’t recall seeing them when I looked at the score. Did I upload the wrong save or am I just totally confused?

I’m also curious how you know how much free unit cost we have. I’ve never bothered to look into that, so can you please explain it to me. It’s probably something simple too.

I understand the fact we don’t have the commerce to support more fog busters, though I’m still a little hesitant to go too long without them. Still feeling the nervousness from Meth01.

I am tempted to research masonry after animal handling, but it sounded like animal handling was researched for military purpose so maybe I should research horseback riding or iron working depending if we have horses. What do you think?

To be honest I wasn’t really sure what to research. I thought about Iron Working but it would take way too long. I also considered Writing for the libraries, but was too worried about a possible barb problem. Considered Masonry as well for the Pyramids and the Great Lighthouse.

 

[Grogs]

I tend to agree with what Methos is saying on this one. I've been in a scenario like this before and it wasn't pretty. The barbs were coming so fast that even though I had 2 cities pumping out archers non-stop, I nearly got swarmed over. And I'm a player that usually isn't troubled by barbs. Survival has to be priority #1.

To avoid unit cost and supply, build a settler after the barrack unless we lose some fog busters. More cities should increase our commerce and the number of free units so we can complete the fog busting without paying for it.

I agree with you that we need to get settlers out. I don't agree with holding off on the military though. We'll start paying city maintenance & civics costs when we found the next city, so our research rate will drop sooner or later anyway. Personally, I'd chop out a settler while building archers between chops. More cities will help push back the fog and let us take some of the production burden off of Washington.

Send the archer to the first hill suggested by Methos so the area of the future stone city is clear of barbs.

Sounds like a plan.

I am tempted to research masonry after animal handling, but it sounded like animal handling was researched for military purpose so maybe I should research horseback riding or iron working depending if we have horses. What do you think?

I'd say we'll have to be flexible. I almost never research HBR, at least not until I'm ready to build knights. That said, if we've got horses nearby and the barbs are circling, it might be the safe choice rather than hoping for iron. Of course we'll need IW sooner or later to clear the jungle off the gem tile. Going for either one before Masonry probably means the Pyramids are a lost cause since someone (probably Izzy) already has it and Monotheism to boot, but I think we'll have to play to the tactical situation as it develops.

 

[Bezhukov]

If you're worried about barbs, make use of the terrain, but if you don't get some cities down yesterday, things will not be pretty. Fog-bustings great once your core is down, but until then you just have to intercept the barbs coming in. This can be accomplished with two sentries and a chaser.

 

[Methos]

but if you don't get some cities down yesterday, things will not be pretty.

I'll have to disagree with you Bezhukov. In Meth01 we got two cities up before the barbs starting appearing. Even as we continued to both fight them and get more cities out we continued to get swarmed. It wasn't until we finally started sending fog busters out and fortifying them on hills that the barbs started trickling in. At that point we started building cities a lot faster and were able to build back up. IMO and experience taking out the threat of barbs as early as possible speeds things up in the long run.

Barbs seem to be heavier when you're on a continent by yourself.

 

[Bezhukov]

I've experienced this too, but going over your unit limit before building a settler just seems like overkill. You have to post your sentries 3-5 tiles outside the borders, and replace them when they die, but an archer on a hill should be a pretty sturdy barb magnet, especially with guerilla promotions.

I just checked Meth01 - your problem there was you went chasing religions. People who chase religions often find themselves mysteriously 500 years behind other openings, hence barbs.

 

[fbouthil]

Huh!?! How do you figure that? I never met the Mongolians and don’t recall seeing them when I looked at the score. Did I upload the wrong save or am I just totally confused?

I’m also curious how you know how much free unit cost we have. I’ve never bothered to look into that, so can you please explain it to me. It’s probably something simple too.

I found out about the Mongolians the same way I found out about the 4 other civs: the Wonders/Top 5 cities screen.

As for the unit cost, go to the financial advisor. The tooltip you get by putting the mouse over the unit cost tells you the number of free units. You get the same information about free unit supply in the tooltip for the unit supply.

You probably already know that but you can get a lot of informations in those tooptip in civ4. You can get diplomatic info on the name of another civ leader name in the score area, details about your score on your civ leader name. You get tooltip almost everywhere in the city management and in the financial advisor.

I have never experienced barbs problems like you guys are descriving. The most problems I got with barbs was a farm that got pillaged constantly by barbs before they suicide themselves on the garrison.

I will keep in mind Grogs advice about choping forests. Since Washington is already at max happiness pop, it is not as important as usual to build the settler almost entirely from forest chops. I guess it might help us pop-rush sooner.

 

[Bezhukov]

"I have never experienced barbs problems like you guys are descriving."

Barbs intensify over time. If you dilly-dally in training workers (say, to chase religions), you're playing at a later date than you otherwise would be; hence, more barbs. This game, you've delayed your settler to build several troops, so you may run into the same problem. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[fbouthil]

If you dilly-dally in training workers (say, to chase religions), ...

What does training workers has to do with religions? You lost me there.

Anyway, I will start playing my turns now.

 

[Methos]

@fbouthil: Thanks for the info on the tooltips. I've used them in the city screen but hadn't checked anywhere else. Guess I should mouse over everything and see what else pops up. Thanks!

 

[Bezhukov]

Training workers in such things as farming, mining, chopping, pasturing, and roading requires techs one does not learn while chasing religions... By the time you get around to them, its no surprise that barbs are swarming.

 

[fbouthil]

1750BC (preturn)

I was thinking I could cut some forests to accelerate production, but I see the worker is busy building a cottage for 8 turns.​

IBT

barb archer closes on the warrior on the hills.​

1725BC (1)

With 20% fortify bonus and the 25% hills, that gives 3.6 vs 2.9 in favour of the barb archer with 2 stars if he attacks next turn. I move the warrior to the forest (3.6 vs 3.0). I see another barb archer south and crabs east.​

IBT

barb archer kills warrior, but is badly wounded in the process.​

1700BC (2)

I see another fish resource east.​

1675BC(3) - zzz
IBT

barb archer kills archer on hills. Odds were in our favour but we got unlucky this time.
Research: Animal Husbandry->Masonry in 10t. Iron Working (24t) and Horseback Riding (35t) took too long compared to Masonry. There are 4 horse resources on our continent!​

1650BC (4) - zzz
1625BC (5) - zzz
IBT

Washington: Barrack-> Archer (3t) to replace losses.​

1600BC (6) - zzz
1575BC (7) - zzz
IBT

barb archer with 2 stars and cover closes on our archer fortified on hills. Odds are slightly in our favour if they attack next turn.​

1550BC (8)

Worker finishes cottage. Changes citizens to work it and start cutting forest.​

IBT

barb archer with 2 stars and cover loses to our archer.
Washington: Archer -> Settler​

1525BC (9) - zzz
1500BC(10) - zzz

I indicated where the archer was heading. I have not decided on the promotion, but guerilla sounds appropriate if it is going to wait on a hill to get attacked by barbs.

Wonders / Top 5 cities indicates the last civ is Incan. With the Spanish, Chinese, Malinese, Romans and Mongolians, we now know all our opponents. Statistics indicates we are last in everything except gold where we are first!

 

[fbouthil]

Oups! I forgot this: Roster:

Colony - Up
Mutax2003 - On Deck
Grogs
Methos
Fbouthil

 

[colony]

Got it.

Probably won't have time to play today, so it'll probably have to wait until tomorrow