Coastal cities more valuable in civ4

[civzombie]

Here is what we know:
- Roads no longer provide a +1 commerce bonus
- Coastal squares still provide a +2 commerce bonus


So coastal cities will produce TONS of trade relative to inland cities.

Also, on a related note, I noticed gold provides +7 trade. So a small population city harvesting gold will be able to keep up tradewise with a larger inland city. This will make it a tough choice whether to let the city grow by harvesting grassland or harvesting gold for the immediate and massive trade benefit.

 

[MasterChief]

The fact is that most coastal cities in the real world do have more trade activities than inland cities. New York, Boston, Norfolk (VA if anyone is wondering), Seatle, San Francisco, ect... Most major cities around the world have very easy access to the oceans so its more realistic for the bulk of your empire to be developed near oceans.

 

[Dida]

Well coastal cities are equally valuable in real life. Why do you think NYC is not located in the middle of the desert?

 

[dc82]

ever watch futurama? the long lost city of atlanta had moved to the middle of the ocean to escape its landlocked location in favor for some coastlines... before it overdevelops and sinks to the bottom. heh.

 

[Avayaman]

it's about time they make this adjustment... trade was hopelessly unbalanced during the early parts of the game, with emphasis on roads more than coastlines.

 

[civzombie]

Should finally give a civ who starts off on an island network a fighting chance on Deity level! Plus with the chance to improve ocean squares this will help even more. Really looking forward to playing a southpacific start on a world map w/ these new rule changes!

Note in civ2 an island civ was not as handicapped b/c it could establish more valuable trade routes than the intercontinental trade routes between the civs that shared a pangea.

 

[Avayaman]

and it should make "seafaring" trait more valuable with the "starts on a coastline"

 

[Superkrest]

and once again with the broken record......"and hopefully this is another way to put more importance on the civ navies"

 

[apatheist]

Civ doesn't have the concept of natural harbors. Seattle, San Francisco, New York City, and Boston all had geography that made it easy to bring ships in. The game doesn't model that; all non-mountain coastal terrain is equally accessible to ships. As an aside, Civilization doesn't place enough emphasis on terrain in general, of course, nor does it have a trade model that would result in phenomena more like the real world, leading to hacks like coastal squares generating commerce.

 

[Avayaman]

good point apatheist...maybe they can have 2 different kinds of coastlines: deep water and shallow. both would still be coastlines accesible to galleys, but all ocean going vessels will need deep water instead of shallow to dock on a city. all vessels have the ability to pass shallow waters though. shouldn't clutter up gameplay much...

 

[apatheist]

The issue is with the tile the city is on, not the water tiles. Imagine a 1-tile island with a city on it. Suppose half the tiles are shallow water and half the tiles are deep water. Does that mean that ships can enter the city from one direction, but not the other?

It's not strictly about the depth of the water. It's about whether ships can be sheltered from storms and waves. There are a lot of complicated issues. I think the issues are perhaps too complicated. That's why I favor a slightly different model.

I think ships should not be able to enter cities that don't have harbors (and thus, cannot be built in cities that don't have them either). They cannot derive trade benefits from the ocean either. You should be able to load units onto and unload units from ships at arbitrary locations along the coast, but doing so should use up all movement points of the ships and the cargo. Loading and unloading in a harbor has no such costs. Workers should be able to build harbors outside of cities where ships can dock, like they can build air fields. That way, your ability to land forces on enemy shores isn't eliminated, but you have to establish a beach head first. You'll have to land workers (or combat engineers, if there is such a thing) and a defensive unit to establish your beach head. Once you've done that, only then would it make sense to land offensive units. Amphibious assaults should be hard.

 

[dc82]

while areas like the american atlantic coastline or east asian coastlines r great for harbors and cities, other coastlines such as those in east and west africa do not have land condusive for natural harbors, which many can corrolate to the lack of sea exploration throughout history. it mite be hard for civ to make this in the game though, since there r numerous factors such as elevation, land formation etc that affect how good of a harbor coastlines r.

 

[Evie]

West africa, true. the East African coast was actually quite harbor-covered throughout the ages, and an integral part of the Indian Ocean trade.

 

[tcjsavannah]

ever watch futurama? the long lost city of atlanta had moved to the middle of the ocean to escape its landlocked location in favor for some coastlines... before it overdevelops and sinks to the bottom. heh.

Hail, Atlanta!

 

[MasterChief]

At some points in the game it wasnt easy to find a good location to place a city next to the coast. I believe there should be a worker ability to build a harbor on a square in the same way that an airport can be built. Anyone else agree?

 

[dc82]

West africa, true. the East African coast was actually quite harbor-covered throughout the ages, and an integral part of the Indian Ocean trade.

compared to west africa, east africa did have more land/harbors suitable for ships and trade, but as a whole, compared to similiar lengths of coastlines in europe, asia, and america, even the east african coast line was pretty limited. along the red sea, coral reefs present obstacles for ships, the coastal plain is pretty narrow along the east and south - the best harbors r actually around senegal to liberia, around the mouths of rivers where deep coastal inlets can be found.

 

[Theoden]

Allthough roads won't give any commerce bonus, it seems that instead most land tiles will have a base commerce regardless of improvements.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Hey, Civzombie, where did you here about your second point-you know, the one relating to gold and trade? I haven't found any reference to it in any of the reviews I have seen thus far. Can you please post a link?

Thanks.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[civzombie]

"Allthough roads won't give any commerce bonus, it seems that instead most land tiles will have a base commerce regardless of improvements."

Agreed. I am speculating that the base commerce bonus will be 0 trade on all land squares since that is what it has been in civ1-civ3. Now that roads do not give a commerce bonus, land w/o bonus resources or rivers will generate 2 less trade than coastal squares. Maybe someone can find a screenshot or something to verify my speculation that land will once again give 0 trade.

EDIT: Looking again at the civ4 prerelease info, I can see that both tundra and grassland give 0 commerce bonus. Only flood plains, which are always adjacent to a river, give +1 commerce. Thus, basic land tiles will give +0 compared to basic coastal tiles which give +2. Big difference!

 

[civzombie]

"Hey, Civzombie, where did you here about your second point-you know, the one relating to gold and trade? I haven't found any reference to it in any of the reviews I have seen thus far. Can you please post a link?"

Hi. I was able to find the amount of trade that gold generates in the civ4 prerelease information section on the main page. I also found that coastal squares will still generate 2 trade as the prerelease info gave that too. Not sure where they got the info from, but I understand that source to be pretty reliable.

The prerelease information did not explicitly say how much commerce every basic land tile will give, but I noticed that grassland and tundra both give +0. It is reasonable to assume that other basic land terrain types also give +0.