Towns vs Cities? Bad/Good Design? META?

Picking Siam can raise this to really silly levels :)
Their "Itsaraphab" ability lets you to vassalize IPs immediately for a small influence extra, so you can have all the IPs of the world for yourself, just like Alex did in CivV. Just be prepared to defend them, if you go to war, as AI kills them off rather efficiently.
Yeah you do have to think about which IP's to go for as they can be wiped out with no way of getting them back, either destroyed if taken out before they become a CS or captured and there is no liberate mechanincs, so there is a good risk/reward strategy going on.

It can be less important if you get the free tech/civic option as you get the bonus as soon as you suzerain but if you take the 5% bonuses it can get wiped out pretty easily if they are close to your enemies and you can't defend them properly.
 
Actually it's a bit different, because specialists and buildings do use food and you could bring a city to negative food quite easily if you don't have towns to support it.
Buildings don’t…and it would probably be hard for a city to actually get negative food unless it lost connection to a bunch of towns at once (might be possible with a siege or Fishing Quay pillage)
 
Buildings don’t…and it would probably be hard for a city to actually get negative food unless it lost connection to a bunch of towns at once (might be possible with a siege or Fishing Quay pillage)
Yep, I messed up food and happiness. Buildings don't, but specialists do. And yes, I was talking about cities without town support.
 
Buildings don’t…and it would probably be hard for a city to actually get negative food unless it lost connection to a bunch of towns at once (might be possible with a siege or Fishing Quay pillage)
Ok so specialists consume food, but normal citizens don't? That's still weird, but ok. Either way, it seems balance is off if people can support a 35 city empire with only 4 towns, or what the numbers reported earlier in the thread was. In my mind at least, the whole point of this system would be that big cities should need towns to provide food (and production) to survive.
 
I started off focusing on tech/civic stealing once I caught on to hub towns (get the mod that shows connections) but have started using it to go for IPs.

As (the bonus from) IPs are another thing the game doesn't tell you about i think many players are ignoring them.

Antiquity, if you get a cultural IP you can get a civic every time you suzerain and IP and in all ages a free tech from science IPs.

In all ages you can get 5% gold for each CS you are suzerain of and 5% science.

You have to think about it with the free tech/civics as you want to get the appropriate IP first as I don't think it is retrospective but for the 5% bonuses it is for total suzerain of IPs.

If I focus i can usually get 5 or 6 suzerain which it that number of free techs/civics and 25-30% more gold or science output.
Some suzerain bonus are even better, althougth they can be dismissed at first:
  • Trade route range is really powerfull in antiquity/modern since you can trade everywhere you want. So reaching the amount of slotted ressources in antiquity becomes a matter of getting enough slots (cities or wonders), and a lot less about settling them. In modern that let you get as much factory ressources as you want. During exploration it is slightly less efficient, but empire ressources are still sweet!
  • Science/culture yield (exploration): if you want to master the science legacy, those two will give you an easy pass at reaching the 40 yields tiles.
  • Boosted projects (Modern): getting +25% prod toward project might seem low, but it helps with two legacy paths: science and military.
  • Unique tile improvements: the more I play, the more I find those rather efficient. You can sink your excess money into improving your towns, and the yields will be kept at age change. One seems rather powerfull to me, the exploration age science improvement (monastery, I think?), with 4 science (plus 4 happiness if the settlement follows your religion), the only downside is that you can't build them next to an urban district (but that's not difficult for towns^^). Being able to raise town happiness with ease (most crisis ask you to keep your towns under your religion...) is perfect!
All in all, I tend to try my best to get as many IP under my wings. It's a bit sad when you see them disapear, but they are much worth the investment! (and they have some other perks, such as levying commander for only 200 influence if you are lucky!!!)
 
At the moment, I think I have almost no understanding of how to use towns effectively. I may just be missing the obvious, but it seems sufficiently complex enough to me that there will never be one "correct" strategy, every situation should be assessed differently. Which is bad for me because I'm too stupid. :lol:
 
Ok so specialists consume food, but normal citizens don't? That's still weird, but ok. Either way, it seems balance is off if people can support a 35 city empire with only 4 towns, or what the numbers reported earlier in the thread was. In my mind at least, the whole point of this system would be that big cities should need towns to provide food (and production) to survive.
well “regular citizens” are Rural pop working the land so it is taken off the top.

and a 35 city 4 town empire is going to have a lot of very rural cities (ie few specialists)
 
Ok so specialists consume food, but normal citizens don't? That's still weird, but ok. Either way, it seems balance is off if people can support a 35 city empire with only 4 towns, or what the numbers reported earlier in the thread was. In my mind at least, the whole point of this system would be that big cities should need towns to provide food (and production) to survive.
The second part here is about "realism" not gameplay, while "balance" is clearly about gameplay.

From gameplay perspective, yes you don't need many towns for cities to survive, but you need many towns for city to grow and that's very important part of the game. Big city with huge number of specialist is a powerhouse.
 
Imo for towns, food is king. Food means you get more tiles, and get them sooner. Especially for getting those resources. Food to cities means you get more specialists, which are important to get science and culture.

Mining towns can be good for more gold, but those towns usually end up being cities if they have plenty of space for districts. Getting gold is also pretty easy, so getting even more has a lower return imo. Getting a lot of the Gold/silver resource makes your money go even further.

Influence towns can be pretty strong.

The rest are very niche, and arent really worth it imo.

the +1 culture and science on quarters is pretty bad. It gets worse as you go on. Especially after age changes, where most of your districts are no longer quarters. The one era its ok in, you are still better off just getting more food and gold, to earn even more science and culture back.

The town/city mechanic overall is pretty good. With a little balance and fixing the connection system, it can be great.
 
Some suzerain bonus are even better, althougth they can be dismissed at first:
  • Trade route range is really powerfull in antiquity/modern since you can trade everywhere you want. So reaching the amount of slotted ressources in antiquity becomes a matter of getting enough slots (cities or wonders), and a lot less about settling them. In modern that let you get as much factory ressources as you want. During exploration it is slightly less efficient, but empire ressources are still sweet!
  • Science/culture yield (exploration): if you want to master the science legacy, those two will give you an easy pass at reaching the 40 yields tiles.
  • Boosted projects (Modern): getting +25% prod toward project might seem low, but it helps with two legacy paths: science and military.
  • Unique tile improvements: the more I play, the more I find those rather efficient. You can sink your excess money into improving your towns, and the yields will be kept at age change. One seems rather powerfull to me, the exploration age science improvement (monastery, I think?), with 4 science (plus 4 happiness if the settlement follows your religion), the only downside is that you can't build them next to an urban district (but that's not difficult for towns^^). Being able to raise town happiness with ease (most crisis ask you to keep your towns under your religion...) is perfect!
All in all, I tend to try my best to get as many IP under my wings. It's a bit sad when you see them disapear, but they are much worth the investment! (and they have some other perks, such as levying commander for only 200 influence if you are lucky!!!)
In a way (apart from the general frustration of the lack of in game information) the lack of in game information seems to be causing players to miss a lot of the depth and nuance there is in the game.

The game seems very simple and shallow at first look but there is a lot going on which the game simply doesn't inform you about at all or in a meaningfull way so player knows what choices they can be making or what the point is. IPs in particular are a mystery unless you look for online guides.

I completely ignored influence, hub towns and IPs in my first few games as I had no idea what I was going to get from a CS for all that time, risk and investment and then rewards seemed to change all the time.

I like to pick random leaders and roll with what i get and when i got influence/CS focused civs i just felt lost and they seemed a bit pointless.

It was only when I found an online summary of IP bonuses by age I realised this was worth looking at and how powerful and flexible they can be and they have become a big focus of my games.
 
I would turn the question round - you have to ask yourself what does it benefit your empire to spend the gold to convert this town?
  • Do I have a wonder I want to build there?
  • Do I have a unique quarter I want to spam everywhere?
  • Is there some other building I need that I can't put in a town?
Production, science, culture, influence, happiness.
Cities do a lot that towns don't.
 
Wait, just to make sure I understand this correctly, are you actually telling me that a city will not lose population if it doesn't have enough food? :eek:
No cities only lose population during crises as far as I know. Otherwise it just has never come up, given the game balance, not having enough food would be very rare.
 
Definitely great addition, the only issue I have with it is the kinda obscure and many times broken connection system.
 
  • Unique tile improvements: the more I play, the more I find those rather efficient. You can sink your excess money into improving your towns, and the yields will be kept at age change. One seems rather powerfull to me, the exploration age science improvement (monastery, I think?), with 4 science (plus 4 happiness if the settlement follows your religion), the only downside is that you can't build them next to an urban district (but that's not difficult for towns^^). Being able to raise town happiness with ease (most crisis ask you to keep your towns under your religion...) is perfect!
I've found the Monastery a good way to spend your excess Gold in late Exploration age to get a good Science start in Modern age.
 
Unique improvements are pretty solid overall. They lose a little of their value on age change unlike specialists who need their buildings replaced before they function again.
 
I think the steep escalation in food cost for each growth is probably why upgrading most towns to cities is optimal right now. I’ve only barely managed to get half my towns to cities in some games (purchased in my existing towns are too enticing) but I can see that new cities are worth 2-3x their current production when converting gold to production.
 
Towns are a good addition to the game. On paper at least, they can remove a lot of city micromanagement. That hinges on how much gold you can get. Since towns are major sources of gold, the more towns you convert into cities, the harder it should become to convert the rest. I don't think the game is currently balanced well enough to ensure that this is true beyond the halfway point of Exploration, and I think it's possible to even reach that point in Antiquity. It seems like, at some point, gold just becomes too easy to come by as you get high-adjacency gold buildings up and gain access to leader attributes, policies, etc. that provide maintenance discounts.

In terms of strategies, here's what I have. You need to keep in mind that a growing town provides more or less just the following: resources, gold and happiness. Before it can be specialized, it keeps all the food that it generates, and it's very hard for towns to generate meaningful amounts of science, culture and influence because they don't usually have access to buildings that provide those yields. Of the three benefits that a town provides, the most significant is the resources, so your primary focus has to be on collecting as many useful resources as you can. Gold is much less significant, at least while the town is still growing. Happiness is still less significant, but it doesn't mean you want to neglect it. At the very least, you don't want your new towns to tank your happiness by going over the settlement limit. Consider a scenario where you're looking to settle a town that can get access to three copies of sheep. Sheep is a good resource, but you should remember that each copy provides +2 production and +2 happiness. If this town makes you go over the settlement limit of, let's say 6, it will result in a penalty of 35 happiness, or -30 happiness if you exclude the -5 happiness in the town itself. That means your net gain is +6 production and -24 happiness, or potentially even worse if your cities don't have empty resource slots. That's not a trade-off I'll often make.

My rules for settling towns are like so:
- Settlement location selection is all about resources. Happiness penalty for settling off fresh water is almost never significant enough to deter me from settling with the aim of collecting the best resources.
- Early towns will eventually become cities. Make sure to give them plenty of space.
- Avoid over-settling. The happiness penalty that comes with it is usually not worth it.
- Focus on growth in young towns, with the aim of switching out of growth tiles once they're fully developed.
- Food buildings like granaries are useful in towns as growth is half-priced, and so are resources like dates that give food to towns.
- Buildings like brickyards are useful for eventually kicking out farmers to send them down to the mines.

To elaborate on the last rule, consider the following scenario: in Antiquity, replace a 3-food farm with a brickyard in order to relocate the citizen to a 3-production mine. If this town already has 4 other mines, that brickyard represents marginal income of 7 gold per turn. If you put the town to mining focus, it goes up to 12 gold per turn. The brickyard has a base cost of 220 gold, which means you break even in 19 turns. To put that into context, if you built the Pyramids (base cost of 275 production) in a city that can immediately get value from it on 8 tiles, and if you assumed that 1 production were equal to 1 gold, it would take you 18 turns to break even (275 / 2 / 8 > 17).
 
I think one way to solve the balance problem with regards to gold is to change the way gold buildings work. These buildings should generate gold based on how the cities they're in interact with other settlements. Make it so that your settlements connected to a city with a market get +x% gold yield. That would make converting towns into cities a tougher decision because towns would generally be much better at generating gold. At the same time, there would now be a counter incentive to convert a town to a city so that you can get another market that adds more gold bonus to a bunch of towns.
 
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